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Old 08-24-2020, 01:44 PM   #26
SocraticGambler
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Originally Posted by Chad_1982 View Post
Good analysis Socratic, agree with most of it, just wanna add 2 things:
a) Of course my 4bet range pro is wider, but i'd rather do it with a ds rundown of any kind then with akk10, because those hands are more easily playable after the flop, and when i get reraised, i don't have to fold, because my hand plays well against aces.
b) as i said, mostly agree with your analysis, i guess the discussion about the whale being able to fold and the owner's reaction to that influenced me too much during the hand

ps: thx for all your comments guys, really good input
You make a good point about 4-betting ranges and why AKK10 perhaps OOP isn't the best one because of the dynamics.

It's a very interesting hand to think about; sometimes in poker we get stacked no matter what, this might be one of the cases but the dynamics from the turn really made it an odd spot.
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Old 08-25-2020, 03:53 AM   #27
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
4bet pre, if your hand is that faceup that means you're a bad nit and you need to study 4bet ranges to ensure proper board coverage. If you're uncomfortable playing deep oop, again, that means you're a bad nit

can comfortably fold to the 5b pre
1. as i complimented the others in this thread for good input, let me tell you, that using insulting language only shows your own weakness in terms of character and stuff ... so that's that.

2. Trying not to play too many hands deep oop: Some call it "bad nit", others call it smart
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Old 08-25-2020, 03:58 AM   #28
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Originally Posted by wazz View Post
Good thread.

You gotta 4b with the fish as bad as he is. The fact that you think your range is face-up is mitigated by the fact you don't actually have AA, the fact that you're blocking AA means you're less likely to be up against it yourself and have to fold, and you're nutted with good broadway potential. You should also be 4betting other strong A-high hands and the occasional high rundown like KQJ9ds.
As i've said before, i like the kqj9 or others like 9876 ds much better for a 4bet, just like the easy playability postflop, but will look into my 4bet range ... since to many people think it's a 4bet

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With regards to the ruling, the casino's interests (and ours, in the long-term) is protecting the money of losing players. There's a grey area here, in the sense that if the dealer was off by $10k, I doubt anyone would argue that he's compelled to put his entire stack in because of a dealer error, but if he was $100 out, there's a good argument he should have to put the extra $100 in. If the pot was in fact $10k, I would damn well like the option not to go all-in or even bet at all, because it's much less likely people will fold. So the question is, at what $ amount does the floor rule one way or the other? We need to allow the floor a certain amount of leeway and discretion and I'm entirely comfortable with them making different decisions based on whether you're a pro or an amateur, as long as it's seen to be reasonably consistent and fair, but the point is that this situation is going to be inherently unfair on someone, and we should extend favours to losing players, because they're our bread and butter and we want them to come back.
Key point here: Loosing players should get more favors. Agreed 100%
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Old 08-25-2020, 04:22 AM   #29
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Originally Posted by SocraticGambler View Post
You make a good point about 4-betting ranges and why AKK10 perhaps OOP isn't the best one because of the dynamics.
Yeah, i look at it like this:
1. I have good kings.
2. The hand is not ds, only ss
3. The ace doesnt really play, only as a blocker for someone else having aces

So i play a high pair, and plan on winning the hand with either hitting a set of kings or with some kind of board pairing so that my kings up beats someone elses 2 pair

It looks really strong, but hey, there's already enough money in the middle, we are all deep, i'm oop ... why blow it up even more with that hand?

That's my thinking, might be wrong pure GTO wise, but i'm comfortable that way, not pushing small (if any) edges and reducing variance, and that's also very important

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Originally Posted by SocraticGambler View Post
sometimes in poker we get stacked no matter what, this might be one of the cases but the dynamics from the turn really made it an odd spot.
Yeah, good one, to that regard i got another one for you:
Yesterday's game, good line-up, one really aggro (but good) guy in the mix, he always plays super deep (covers the biggest stack), and puts you to the test constantly when he smells weakness;

So, the hand, game is 10-10 today, i play 2800, aggro guy over 10K, other stacks around 1 - 1,5K:
UTG someone open 40, i flat with AQQ2 (A2 hearts), another caller, aggro guy min 3bets to 80, UTG calls, i call. Pot is 250

Flop AKQ (2 clubs).
It goes check, check, aggro guy bets pot 250.
UTG folds, i flat. My thinking: He has it (j10), or he plays blockers (jj or 1010), or he has some flush draw with a gutter or a pair or something. So raising doesn't really makes sense ( i either loose or make the bluffer quit), but can't really fold here with middle set. Agree everybody?

Turn offsuite 5.
I check, he pots again 750
So i have like 2450 in front of me now, meaning, if i call there's almost a full pot bet left on the river. Can i fold here? Do i have to actually?
Decided to go with my read and history i had with him and put him on the bluff. Call.

River 2 of clubs:
I check, he pots (allin for me)
So, now i think:If he had j10 from the start (without clubs), he would check behind now (showdown value)
if he had j10 with the clubs, well, what can i do.
Or, he was playing that bluff i mentioned earlier all along, some kind of combo bluff/drawing hand.

What do you guys do now, call or fold?
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Old 08-25-2020, 04:43 AM   #30
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Originally Posted by Chad_1982 View Post
Yeah, i look at it like this:
1. I have good kings.
2. The hand is not ds, only ss
3. The ace doesnt really play, only as a blocker for someone else having aces

So i play a high pair, and plan on winning the hand with either hitting a set of kings or with some kind of board pairing so that my kings up beats someone elses 2 pair
When you have AKK and put in the last aggressive action preflop, you're playing it like AA. The A very much does play, moreso than a K if you had AAK6ss - really, it's a stronger hand than that in this situation, as you have the wrap potential too. Just because you don't have the actual aces doesn't mean your effective hand strength isn't the same or even better. AKKTss to the ace is a better hand to 4b than many AAxx.
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Old 08-25-2020, 06:19 AM   #31
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

Aqq2 is really much better as a 3! Than a flat.

Would like to know if we have backdoor hearts on flop or any clubs in hand - if we have the queen of clubs villain will have less semi-bluffs.

I think fold turn is probably best, and folding river seems straightforward unless villain is really wild. Note - villain can still have kkxx hands

Edit: if q hi flush would be nuts on river, turning our hand into a bluff may actually be correct (from a solver standpoint)

Last edited by monikrazy; 08-25-2020 at 06:31 AM.
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Old 08-25-2020, 06:50 AM   #32
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Aqq2 is really much better as a 3! Than a flat.

Would like to know if we have backdoor hearts on flop or any clubs in hand - if we have the queen of clubs villain will have less semi-bluffs.

I think fold turn is probably best, and folding river seems straightforward unless villain is really wild. Note - villain can still have kkxx hands

Edit: if q hi flush would be nuts on river, turning our hand into a bluff may actually be correct (from a solver standpoint)
Yep, sorry, there was 1 heart on the board, that's why i mentioned i have a2 of hearts

no, don't have any blocker for clubs

really, you fold the turn?

to tell the rest/end:
I actually ended up calling the river, villain was playing 891010 with clubs, so semi-bluffing all the way with gutshot and flush draw
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Old 08-25-2020, 09:20 AM   #33
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

I fold flop with AQQ2 , its a horrible hand to call down with. Headsup i might call down but 3way ill give him some credit.
Kudos to you for sticking with your read though, calling turn and folding river would be setting money on fire basically.
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Old 08-25-2020, 09:41 AM   #34
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

Wait river was a club? I misread that part then no its a terrible river call on ur part
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Old 08-25-2020, 10:02 AM   #35
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Here i think when op points out the difference, he has basically volunteereed a courtesy redo.
This + private game

you did the right thing though and frankly, the floor did the right thing here since the whale was acting on bad information and wasn't trying to angle or gain advantage out of the mistake

meanwhile, if you called and then pointed out the pot was bigger to ask if there should be more in there then I would 100% view you as trying to angleshoot the whale and are likely not invited back in

not a big plo player but seems like a spot where you're getting stacked basically every time, his hand was really well disguised and your river bet screams steal, your hand is very underrepped here as well imo
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Old 08-25-2020, 02:46 PM   #36
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Originally Posted by Chad_1982 View Post
Yeah, good one, to that regard i got another one for you:
Yesterday's game, good line-up, one really aggro (but good) guy in the mix, he always plays super deep (covers the biggest stack), and puts you to the test constantly when he smells weakness;

So, the hand, game is 10-10 today, i play 2800, aggro guy over 10K, other stacks around 1 - 1,5K:
UTG someone open 40, i flat with AQQ2 (A2 hearts), another caller, aggro guy min 3bets to 80, UTG calls, i call. Pot is 250

Flop AKQ (2 clubs).
It goes check, check, aggro guy bets pot 250.
UTG folds, i flat. My thinking: He has it (j10), or he plays blockers (jj or 1010), or he has some flush draw with a gutter or a pair or something. So raising doesn't really makes sense ( i either loose or make the bluffer quit), but can't really fold here with middle set. Agree everybody?

Turn offsuite 5.
I check, he pots again 750
So i have like 2450 in front of me now, meaning, if i call there's almost a full pot bet left on the river. Can i fold here? Do i have to actually?
Decided to go with my read and history i had with him and put him on the bluff. Call.

River 2 of clubs:
I check, he pots (allin for me)
So, now i think:If he had j10 from the start (without clubs), he would check behind now (showdown value)
if he had j10 with the clubs, well, what can i do.
Or, he was playing that bluff i mentioned earlier all along, some kind of combo bluff/drawing hand.

What do you guys do now, call or fold?
I don't really like how you played this hand - as monikrazy pointed out this holding (AQQ2 suited to the A2) works better as a 3-bet pre since we can rep AA by blocking it and look to narrow it to a heads-up pot where it plays better.

Once the flop comes AKQ with a flush draw I think we are in a trap spot - based on pre-flop action the best case scenario is typically a strong opponent will have AK or A with a flush draw (every now and then will show up with JJ/1010 with clubs as well); since we didn't raise pre we then have to check-call flop/turn/river knowing that any club/J/10 could get us stacked just because we flop bottom set? Seems like a losing strategy.

I think optimal play in a 3-way pot with the small 3-bet pre is to just fold on the flop since we are OOP. We don't have a hand that pays us off if we do hit since we aren't in position; it came the best card possible in the deck for us besides a Q and all we can do is check-call on the turn? This lets villain value bet us with AA/KK/J10 and it also lets him bluff-catch with all Jx/10x of club hands (which is what it looks like bit you in the end).

If you are going to trust your read on the turn (i.e he is bluffing with AK or A/J/10/x of clubs) then shouldn't you CRAI? Gotta dodge about 20 cards on that river (A/K/J/10/club) based on his range and there is no guarantee he will bluff again if river comes a non-club low-card. Guess it depends on if he's capable of folding AA/KK ever in that spot on the turn; if you have no Fold Equity against those type of hands from this player then our hand loses even more value and I wouldn't want to continue on the flop.
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Old 08-26-2020, 06:06 AM   #37
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Originally Posted by SocraticGambler View Post
I don't really like how you played this hand - as monikrazy pointed out this holding (AQQ2 suited to the A2) works better as a 3-bet pre since we can rep AA by blocking it and look to narrow it to a heads-up pot where it plays better.
3-betting this (with fold to 4bet) is a good idea, makes sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by SocraticGambler View Post
Once the flop comes AKQ with a flush draw I think we are in a trap spot - based on pre-flop action the best case scenario is typically a strong opponent will have AK or A with a flush draw (every now and then will show up with JJ/1010 with clubs as well); since we didn't raise pre we then have to check-call flop/turn/river knowing that any club/J/10 could get us stacked just because we flop bottom set? Seems like a losing strategy.

I think optimal play in a 3-way pot with the small 3-bet pre is to just fold on the flop since we are OOP.
Interesting ... i get your reasoning, but my gut says simply folding middle set here can't be correct: There must be a better way to play this spot (though, don't really see it right now)

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Originally Posted by SocraticGambler View Post
If you are going to trust your read on the turn (i.e he is bluffing with AK or A/J/10/x of clubs) then shouldn't you CRAI? Gotta dodge about 20 cards on that river (A/K/J/10/club) based on his range and there is no guarantee he will bluff again if river comes a non-club low-card. Guess it depends on if he's capable of folding AA/KK ever in that spot on the turn; if you have no Fold Equity against those type of hands from this player then our hand loses even more value and I wouldn't want to continue on the flop.
Yeah, remember was thinking that (CRAI) during the hand, but then decided against, because, when he's bluffing, why let him off cheap (he obv folds to crai). I didn't consider all the semi-bluff spots, that might get there on the river, and, being oop, lots of scare cards that make it really difficult for me to continue and easy for him to either get value or put me to the test.

All in all i think now i thought about the player i was playing against (and the history i have with him) way more than possible hand ranges, that was probably my biggest mistake.

Balanced and overall i now think CRAI (not knowing what he has) is GTO-wise the best course of action, especially oop. You get rid of a lot of problems on the river, might have the best hand a reasonable amount of time, and in ok shape (j10 combos) if not
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Old 08-26-2020, 09:17 AM   #38
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

^ YGO ftw!
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Old 08-26-2020, 01:38 PM   #39
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Interesting ... i get your reasoning, but my gut says simply folding middle set here can't be correct: There must be a better way to play this spot (though, don't really see it right now)
It's actually bottom set though on the flop (don't consider it middle even with the turn); blockers on AA and unlikely it gets min-raised 3-bet pre with AA but KK is very possible.

Now that you know results it's tricky because in hindsight it's easier to justify taking the line you took; I still think you just need to 3-bet pre to isolate the UTG raiser (if he 4bets you can flat in position and look to out-play knowing he likely has AA/ds KK/Broadway Wrap). Playing this hand against multiple opponents in 3-bet pot without a perfect flop of Queens full/Quads is always going to be incredibly tricky.

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Originally Posted by Chad_1982 View Post
Yeah, remember was thinking that (CRAI) during the hand, but then decided against, because, when he's bluffing, why let him off cheap (he obv folds to crai). I didn't consider all the semi-bluff spots, that might get there on the river, and, being oop, lots of scare cards that make it really difficult for me to continue and easy for him to either get value or put me to the test.
That's the whole reason you CRAI - you want him to fold his flush-draw/straight-draw as he is semi-bluffing. He put in $750 on the turn with 20% equity and got to realize that equity. I'd say taking 30-40% of his stack with your hand in this spot would be an amazing outcome, you would've felt amazing about your play if you CRAI and he folds (you made a read, made the right play, and opponent leveled himself into double-barreling and got punished to the max).

If you take the line of CRAI you are essentially re-semi-bluffing all-in and take away his equity with his own semi-bluff (and theoretically could get folds of AA/KK, though I still doubt that to a degree....depends on specific players).

Once you flat you are telling him you have a made hand (set/straight); if it blanks the river and we check again I would say in all likelihood he will check behind vast majority of the time. That's why we CRAI here if we trust our read, since we fold out the semi-bluffs; even if he had AK there is no way he bets or calls a bet on a blank on the river, so again we are just letting them draw for a price they determine without further bluff-catching value.

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All in all i think now i thought about the player i was playing against (and the history i have with him) way more than possible hand ranges, that was probably my biggest mistake.

Balanced and overall i now think CRAI (not knowing what he has) is GTO-wise the best course of action, especially oop. You get rid of a lot of problems on the river, might have the best hand a reasonable amount of time, and in ok shape (j10 combos) if not
I think this hand really illustrates why it's critical to put in the 3-bet PRE to get people to define their ranges more clearly and narrow the field (plus hopefully earn position on the opening raiser), otherwise we really aren't clear where we are at and are forced to check-call multiple streets without any clear idea if we are getting taken to value-town or semi-bluffed.

Last edited by SocraticGambler; 08-26-2020 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 08-26-2020, 03:16 PM   #40
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

C/ r turn from 750 to 2450 is prolly the worst decision possible. Your comments to both of opís hands are very result oriented.
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Old 08-26-2020, 06:45 PM   #41
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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C/ r turn from 750 to 2450 is prolly the worst decision possible. Your comments to both of opís hands are very result oriented.
OP gave results in his posts so it's impossible to fail to take that into account; if he hid results I would be able to give thoughts without.

Should I be ignoring the outcome when it's shared? The analysis changes based on the information presented, so of course it's going to change how things are perceived.

Check-Call turn is worse decision possible in my opinion for reasons as noted in my prior post: we let opponent set price for both value-town or semi-bluff, we have no Fold Equity, and we can't realize the full value of our Equity when we do hit.
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Old 08-27-2020, 03:19 AM   #42
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Originally Posted by SocraticGambler View Post

I think this hand really illustrates why it's critical to put in the 3-bet PRE to get people to define their ranges more clearly
I think the reason or better the importance of defining op's range by 3-betting is made super clear with this hand example. another good point.
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Old 08-27-2020, 02:42 PM   #43
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Originally Posted by SocraticGambler View Post
OP gave results in his posts so it's impossible to fail to take that into account; if he hid results I would be able to give thoughts without.

Should I be ignoring the outcome when it's shared? The analysis changes based on the information presented, so of course it's going to change how things are perceived.

Check-Call turn is worse decision possible in my opinion for reasons as noted in my prior post: we let opponent set price for both value-town or semi-bluff, we have no Fold Equity, and we can't realize the full value of our Equity when we do hit.
So you admit youíre result oriented. When analyzing a hand, you should the entire range of vilains hands obviously. Op next time dont post results, you will not get biased responses.
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Old 08-27-2020, 03:10 PM   #44
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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So you admit youíre result oriented. When analyzing a hand, you should the entire range of vilains hands obviously. Op next time dont post results, you will not get biased responses.
Just realized there is this "spoiler" function ... next time.

but anyway, i think the analysis was pretty good, even with results known.
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Old 08-27-2020, 03:41 PM   #45
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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So you admit you’re result oriented. When analyzing a hand, you should the entire range of vilains hands obviously. Op next time dont post results, you will not get biased responses.
Bro read my post - I can only go off the information given, once he spoils the hand that is going to come into the analysis.

I've responded to multiple threads where they don't hide the results in a SPOILER or post until later with analysis (or even provide at all):

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...47/?highlight=

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...72/?highlight=

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...16/?highlight=

I'm legitimately interested in discussing the hand to understand what OP is thinking and try to learn if my own thinking is incorrect/misguided somehow. Once they share the results it is what it is, so don't know why you are so stuck on that fact.

Never was rude to you and agreed with most of your analysis on this thread, so not sure why you are picking a bone with me.
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Old 08-28-2020, 04:06 AM   #46
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

Couldn't agree more.
The "tone" in this thread is very civilized, everybody is giving good input (compared to other threads im reading), so lets just keep it that way.

Disagreement/discussion is good, insults or attacks are not necessary
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Old 08-28-2020, 03:31 PM   #47
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

fold equity? with kings full? with our exact hand it is virtually impossible for anyone to have any equity, unless they have all the equity. clearcut case for taking a WAWB line (c/c).
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Old 08-29-2020, 02:10 AM   #48
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

Was Worm dealing? .... Caught a hanger, Sarge....
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Old 08-29-2020, 07:11 AM   #49
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

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Was Worm dealing? .... Caught a hanger, Sarge....
+1 !!

Apparently i didn't spot the sucker in my first half hour at the table ... ;-)
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Old 09-01-2020, 03:35 AM   #50
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Re: 10/20 PLO, Semi Private Casino Game, tricky spot (after Dealer mistake)

Whale must bet between 2450 and 3450
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