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Old 08-30-2020, 02:37 AM   #1
MartinK1979
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10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

Live PLO 10/10 blinds 8 max.
Pick up a nice hand in MP: AJJx ss and raised preflop and get two callers. Pot is 130.
Flop is J83 rainbow. I bet pot on the flop and get one caller. A very tight player, is one of the biggest nits I ever play with: he is showing almost always the nuts at showdowns. His stack is around 2.5k. I have him covered. Turn Ace (backdoor flush is coming but I am not sure, if this is relevant here).
I bet pot again and he tanks for a while and repot to 1.6k
Hero?
I am not sure how my play looks at his eyes here.
Is folding ever a option here?
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Old 08-30-2020, 03:34 AM   #2
monikrazy
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

What is villain position?

Backdoor flush draw is relevant - do you have any blockers to it?
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Old 08-30-2020, 05:32 AM   #3
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

Of course the bdfd is relevant, and so is your 4th card. If you can't be bothered to remember it, how do you expect us to be bothered to pass comment on your hands?
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Old 08-30-2020, 06:08 AM   #4
MartinK1979
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
What is villain position?

Backdoor flush draw is relevant - do you have any blockers to it?
no, I have no blockers. Not remember excactly what my 4th card was, but it was not a part of the board or a part of any backdoor str8 and blockers.
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Old 08-30-2020, 01:03 PM   #5
SocraticGambler
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

Since you have hand history with opponent would help to know if you have idea of how he plays certain hands. Lot of questions to consider here:

1. We need to know what position he is in; is he in the HJ or OTB?

2. Does he typically flat 3-bets with weak AA in position or will he 4-bet most often?

3. Why did you lead full pot on flop?

4. What is your take on him "tanking" on the turn before re-potting - does he seem genuinely confused or is he "Hollywooding" it being overtly dramatic?

So many rivers kill our ability to realize full equity if we are ahead...unless you've got the hand-history with opponent plus feel/read I don't see how we avoid getting it in here.
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Old 08-30-2020, 01:28 PM   #6
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

Does this "nit" 3b most combos of AAxx pre here? Has he 3! yet this session? With the A blocker and bdfd, SD, I prob shove here.
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Old 08-30-2020, 06:50 PM   #7
MartinK1979
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

@Socratic Gambler. He was directly left on me. I saw him flatting one time AAxx. He 3-bets very rarely but I don't play with him enough hands to get a full view of his play. Just 3 Sessions, where he was showing always the nuts at showdown. Furtermore I don't know yet how he looks at me and my game.
I bet pot on the flop to get more money in the pot with my topset here, but I guess I should bet less on turn?? Maybe he think a potsize bet on ture looks like: this guy want try to push me out the hand and I gonna play back here with AJ and some backdoor stuff..
Another consideration: I was trying to protect my big stack here because I had position on a loose aggro guy in this Session and was not willing to risk all my winnings allready aginst this nit in this sick spot..

Last edited by MartinK1979; 08-30-2020 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 08-30-2020, 08:22 PM   #8
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK1979 View Post
Raised preflop

I bet pot on the flop

I bet pot again [on turn]
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK1979 View Post
Another consideration: I was trying to protect my big stack here because I had position on a loose aggro guy in this Session and was not willing to risk all my winnings allready aginst this nit in this sick spot..
I love you Martin plz never change


edit:
Strat advise: Don't pot flop. It's a poor betsize on rainbow boards with high SPR. Don't know what the hell anyones position is since that was omitted but I don't think potting this should be a thing in any position combo. It makes you very easy to play against in general. The fact that you're suddenly in a conundrum with a hand that loses to only 1 combo on the turn says quite a bit about what going POTPOT multiway does to your range

Last edited by Loctus; 08-30-2020 at 08:34 PM. Reason: .
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Old 08-31-2020, 11:20 AM   #9
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

Quote:
Does this "nit" 3b most combos of AAxx pre here?
2.5k deep a lot of nits are not going to re-raise pre unless they can get a substantial amount of their stack in. You don't want to play face up deep with lots of money still to be bet.
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Old 08-31-2020, 11:59 AM   #10
MartinK1979
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loctus View Post
...

Strat advise: Don't pot flop. It's a poor betsize on rainbow boards with high SPR. Don't know what the hell anyones position is since that was omitted but I don't think potting this should be a thing in any position combo. It makes you very easy to play against in general. The fact that you're suddenly in a conundrum with a hand that loses to only 1 combo on the turn says quite a bit about what going POTPOT multiway does to your range
Yeah Thanks Loctus.
I don't pot it always with strong hands..but against this guy, I was playing a little bit diffrent, but it didn't work this time in this spot...
Yeah, I am sure I played this hand not optimal, should bet less on flop and maybe bet just only 1/2 to 2/3 on turn to get some room for him to continue calling me down...
I didn't expect to get raised at any point in this hand to be honest...And maybe this was a mistake from me to underrate his ablilites to play back at me at some point in this hands. I am sure he has
a) a big combodraw with bnfd and bdstr8 draw, so I am still ahead but he has 30 to 35% equity here or
b) he has what i am put him on the AAxx,
or c) he has the bottom of his raising range AJ with somekind of extra...
I made a big laydown here (one of my sickest laydown ever) and won 1 hour later a 7k pot from the big stack loose guy with my healty 3.5k stack..So don't regret too much about this hand because at the end it was my 2nd biggest winning Session ever
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Old 08-31-2020, 03:05 PM   #11
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK1979 View Post
Yeah Thanks Loctus.
I don't pot it always with strong hands..but against this guy, I was playing a little bit diffrent, but it didn't work this time in this spot...
Yeah, I am sure I played this hand not optimal, should bet less on flop and maybe bet just only 1/2 to 2/3 on turn to get some room for him to continue calling me down...
I didn't expect to get raised at any point in this hand to be honest...And maybe this was a mistake from me to underrate his ablilites to play back at me at some point in this hands. I am sure he has
a) a big combodraw with bnfd and bdstr8 draw, so I am still ahead but he has 30 to 35% equity here or
b) he has what i am put him on the AAxx,
or c) he has the bottom of his raising range AJ with somekind of extra...
I made a big laydown here (one of my sickest laydown ever) and won 1 hour later a 7k pot from the big stack loose guy with my healty 3.5k stack..So don't regret too much about this hand because at the end it was my 2nd biggest winning Session ever

A nit is never re-potting AJ here. I'm not sure how he arrives at turn with AJ either. Bottom of his range here is 88 with the back door flush draw, or a monster wrap/flush draw, and still don't see a nit coming at someone who has shown that much strength.

Seems like a way behind or slight favorite situation, think you can let it go. If he's overly tricky I am probably calling and hoping it's one of the times I'm ahead 1/3 of the time, especially since I have the ace blocker. Case J on river plz?
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Old 08-31-2020, 05:48 PM   #12
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

These are spots where i struggle to fold even if villlain only had aaxx, because from a theoretical standpoint we can never fold.

Even against a nit he might just have picked up a good flush draw with his set, t9xx or turned 2 pair with some other kind of draw like ajkq. Aqjt.

Its also worth mentioning, there is a particular type of bad player who love to flat aaxx and kkxx and call down through river on dry textures. But if they spike top set they are now worried about draws.

I am staring him down and looking for a live read to make my decision in this spot, and also evaluating what he thinks of my table image. But really i doubt we should be folding.
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Old 08-31-2020, 05:50 PM   #13
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

You have to develop a standard cbet sizing based on the board texture or good players will pick up on your bet sizing tells and slaughter you. Jnandez suggests 75% on unpaired boards, 50% on straight and monotone boards and 33% on paired boards. This is HU. Also, oop your cbet freq will go down dramatically.

Also, considering your holding, the best he can have on the flop is 88. I guess he could have 9TQK and have picked up the NF on the turn.

Does he have AA? Nobody knows. It seems likely based on his actions. He either has AAxx or 9TKQ with the fd that just came in. What frequency he has of each I don't know. This is the most important question. If he is weighted one way or another, you need to know. You are an exact flip on the turn vs the wrap/fd and dead to 1 card vs AA.
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Old 08-31-2020, 11:21 PM   #14
MartinK1979
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
These are spots where i struggle to fold even if villlain only had aaxx, because from a theoretical standpoint we can never fold.
Thats true. I was thinking about this during the hand..but than I realize that is not worth to risk all my winnings so far at this one very sick hand against this nit-guy.
I snapcalling/shoving here 9.5 of 10 times against any other players in any others situations...I snapshoving wothout even thinking about it but at this point after 3 hours of play and against this nit of a nit guy, I was deep enough to make some other consideration than look at this one outcome of the hand.
After the Session I was really happy to make this one sick fold even it was wrong..
And thats what is poker all about. You have to face tough decisions and end of the day I was up 5.2k and this was one of my greates and biggest winning Session in my whole pokerlife.
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Old 09-01-2020, 02:49 AM   #15
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

If you can’t remember your cards and suits why don’t you just make them up? Saying you have AJJx and asking for advice is insulting
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Old 09-01-2020, 11:11 AM   #16
MartinK1979
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

Sorry forgot my 4th card but I gurss it was irrelevant to the board and was none of the backdoor blockers.The Ace and one of the Jacks was suited. Turn was not my suit.
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Old 09-01-2020, 04:22 PM   #17
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

im not folding... I guess that's what you are asking? If he only ever has AA here I'd try to exploit him other ways (vary bet sizes) first before making this adjustment and not risk over adjusting this much to begin with as folding this is basically putting his all in range as only nuts ever when theres very few combos of nutted hands and you aren't that deep. He's also playing hands weird preflop/on the flop which isn't uncommon but easier to exploit other ways than literally folding everything except the nuts to him when there's 1 combo of the nuts to begin with.

If you only played with someone once or even a handful of times your read on them are not 100% accurate... sometimes they are not even accurate 70% of the time even though "you're sure he's the nittiest of nits".
Also that is not a good description. Is he playing VPIP <5% preflop? Does he not 3b at all. Is he folding all hands to a single bet OTF? Is he only nitty when he's all in which has to be the nuts.... How many allins have you seen. Were they situations where board is monotone/straight or were they always rare situations of top set.

You are basically making an adjustment that if you are not 90%+ sure he plays a certain way is the incorrect way to play the hand (since 1 combo beats you out of the 6-20 or so you crush if he plays normal + all the draws which you have 60%ish equity against that range with a lot of dead money).

I think you are thinking about poker correctly if you are thinking about each situation and if you can make adjustments like this that most people don't think about but you should focus on details of hands (side cards matter even if you think they don't... suits matter for individual cards especially jack and 8 of the suit if they have more possible combo draws and player descriptions matter more than generalizations into categories etc). This information factors into how you adjust to every situation in these close decisions/adjustments and ultimately how you improve.

Last edited by smoothcriminal99; 09-01-2020 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 09-01-2020, 06:45 PM   #18
Joe-exotic69
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

Is he a good nit or passive bad nit?

A good nit (tag) can easily turn a hand like AQT9 into a bluff knowing his image and the fact that people put him on AA all the time (he probably doesnt think you have AJJ though)

If hes a bad passive nit, a fold isnt out of the question.
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Old 09-02-2020, 08:06 AM   #19
MartinK1979
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Re: 10/10 live PLO sick laydown against a huge nit?

I didn't play enough hands against villian to be sure how he play and what tendencies he has. I saw him just playing very few hands to certain say he is the nittest player at the table. He doesn't raise often preflop, if ever.
I saw him just flatting most of the hands in position and saw always the nuts if he was in showdown.
Furthermore I am not sure, if he can play his image and how he see my and my play overall.. I am not sure if he has me on a tight and agressive side or just only aggressive side since I am often involved in many pots and raising many hands..
So yeah maybe this was one of the spots he was thinking: what the f*** is this guy doing all the time? I will play back now! Still not sure if I should stack off here for 250BB, risk all my winnings there and maybe going to lose my healthy 4.5k stack right now in this session?
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