A 12 win season and a 1 and done is not acceptable to some people, especially when your HoF QB has about 3 maybe 4 years left to play and you will probably be looking for a replacement for the next 10-15 years. The window is very short and a defense this bad isn't going to win sht.

So your consolation is that the Pats haven't looked as bad as the Colts on defense? One team has Super Bowl aspirations. The other is tanking its season and may not win a game all year.

Nobody said anything less than 7-0 is unacceptable, you're making things up. If you're "delighted" with a defense that is absolutely awful, then I don't know what to tell you.

I've said all along that this team only needs a league-average defense in order to be a serious contender. The fact that Belichick has drafted, traded, developed, etc a product that can't keep itself out of the basement and is threatening to submarine the season is the scariest issue here.

This isn't a "value" issue, or a schematic issue, or anything of the sort. One of Belichick's greatest strengths has always been taking average players and coaching them up into impact players. But it's not happening anymore.

Goodie,

Tell me your thoughts on Belichick single-handedly creating a bottom-3 NFL defense? By the way, the D was on the field for 40 minutes yesterday.

What about their red zone defense? To be honest, it was pretty damn good yesterday. The Steelers were absolutely killing the Pats yesterday and the defense managed to hold them to field goals which actually gave the Pats a chance to win the game at the end.

I mean, if you looked at the stats of that game without looking at the score, would you think that was a one score victory by the Steelers? No f'ing way.

The defense looked awful most of the time. No doubt. I don't dispute this. I, however, am not going to go as far to say that because of this one game, the team suddenly can't beat playoff caliber teams since they have already beat playoff caliber teams this year.

I just don't really understand how you don't think that the team that beat SD and the Jets (both playoff teams) could show up in the playoffs and make a run.

You said the product on the field is terrible. However, the record of this team for the last ten years including the most recent years just proves otherwise.

Goodie,

The product on the field is terrible. This has nothing to do with the last ten years, it has to do with now. And this is hardly just one game. The Pats have been putting a below average defense on the field for several years now, and this year they are one of the worst in the league. For a supposedly first-rate organization run by a "genius" who gained his reputation on the defensive side of the ball, it's pathetic.

Let me repeat, they are on pace to give up 600 more passing yards than any team in the history of the NFL. Ben threw 50 times yesterday. There's a reason for that.

Does their record of wins and losses actually just mean nothing to you? I don't understand your reasoning when they just keep beating playoff teams. They are still 29-12 for 09-11 and 19-5 if you take the last two years.

Is this a fluke in your assumption? And what is the product that the Dolphins are putting on the field if somehow the Pats product is "terrible". Does this all REALLY make sense in your mind? Think harder.

The wins and losses means we've had an elite offense compensating for a terrible defense since 2007. I'm not criticizing the team as a whole, Goodie, I'm criticizing the defense, which was 28th in DVOA prior to yesterday and will probably drop below that after yesterday's performance.

I don't see a way a reasonable person can look at the current state of the Patriots defense and consider it anything other than really, really bad. That's all I'm saying.

For a lot of the apologists, it's variance when the Pats get knocked out in the 1st round of the playoffs but somehow not variance when they end up on the correct side of a bunch of close games during the regular season.

I think the Pats record in the regular season last year was more of a fluke than their 1st round exit. Just saying....

I said last year that there was no way we would get to the SB with the defense we were putting on the field. I'm thinking the same thing for this year again, however I wouldn't be surprised at all to see us there. The offense is arguably #1 or #2 in the league which helps (you win the game if you score more than the other team).

I hate citing the Packers as a reference, but holy **** the injuries they had last year (obv still had Rodgers and his concussions, Woodson who got hurt in SB and Clay who played with stress fracture in leg for half of season) but Barnett, Pickett, Chillar, Poppinga, and on offense Finley, Grant, and Tauscher. Those were just the guys on IR... my point is nobody picked them to win and they ran hot and won the SB.

We're going to be playing our best ball at the end of the December because we'll be steamrolling teams (IND, @WAS, @DEN, MIA). I hate implying that we have to hot run to get to the SB, but its gotten to the point where BB can't effectively just plug an undrafted or old/washed up player (thinking along the lines of haynesworth/ellis) into his defense and make it work. The offense is going to carry us through the playoffs and all they ask in return is one or two big plays by the defense in the playoffs. I don't think that's too much to ask for because there are some playmakers on the defense (Wilfork, Mayo, McCourty, Chung)

We're 5-2... everyone needs to relax, we're only halfway through the season...

dude their PD was +205 last year, the next closest team was +148 and that team won the SB.

they ran good in areas last season for sure but heading into the jets game:

-top PD in the nfl
-FO had them #1
-ANS had them #2

pinny had them as clear SB favs.

they lost a playoff game at home to good team, it happens.

people flipping out today need to chill. losing on the road to a team like Pitts isnt anything to be ashamed about. especially when you get raped for 3+ quarters and still have about 15% equity with 3 mins left.

NE has two losses this year, both of them on the road to what appear to be good to elite teams. zomg massively flawed team!. i mean LOL one of the teams most people had rated ahead of the pats coming into this weekend lost to the ******g rams with a backup QB.

THEY ARE 9 POINT FAVS VS THE GIANTS THIS WEEK FFS!

Thanks for saving me the time of posting all this.

Ditto. Glad to see there are some sane fans out there. Salva gets so old to listen to.

Don't pin it on Salva. I'm hearing it from non 2+2'ers, as well.

Every time this team loses a game, the fan base acts like they've lost their last TEN.

Sorry, it's just quite obvious they're not going to win a SB with this defense unless it improves dramatically. They're a good team with a fatal flaw.

And thank you for being a sane person on my side. Goodie doesn't want to hear any criticism of his favorite team. Apparently that makes you a bad fan.

It's hardly an overreaction to one game. It is quite clear that there's a systematic problem on the defensive side of the ball, and it's been going on for years. If the offense can mask those problems then great, but you can't tell me with a straight face that you're not worried about the team having the worst secondary in the NFL by a large margin. Add to that a lack of a pass rush and you end up with the inability to keep the Steelers off the field for 40 minutes, converting 3-and-longs with relative ease.

We don't have the worst secondary in the NFL by a large margin.

Since 2006 the winning teams in the Divisional rounds and later are giving up on avg 20, 18, 17, 13.5, 21 ppg, I just don't see the Pats defense doing that, you are not gonna win more than 1 shootout in the postseason.

The Pats win a lot of regular season games because they are smart and have a great offense, a lot of teams aren't able to limit mistakes and the Pats can capitalize on that. Come postseason, most teams are pretty sound and are good on at least one side of the ball. The Pats might get lucky with matchups and get to the AFCCG but it will probably be vs Pitt or Balt, and if you are counting on Big Ben to make mistakes vs that defense it's not gonna happen. The Ravens are physical and while Flacco sucks, he would still have a good enough day vs the Pats defense.

What I see with the Pats defense is that they are not smart football players at times(or maybe often idk), Pitt has a RB in the flat on 3rd and about 7 and Chung starts to follow and then bails to somewhere else, Ben throws to RB for 1st down. Another game a RB or reciever runs acrross the middle infront of LB, the LB doesn't do anything and the player runs by, catches the pass and 1st down. Both plays there was nothing else going on but the defensive players couldn't recoginize it.

BTW, my man Dr K went 8-4 ATS yesterday, 7-5 on totals, including Best Bet.

Current stats:

ATS: 59% going into yesterday, Best Bets now 4-4.

TOTALS: 64% going into yesterday, Best Bets now 7-1.

Not spam, absolutely free, no registration needed, no nothing from you.

(He's got SD+over tonight)

This is such an easy way out as they could win a SB with this D and you can just say "they improved" when they just might have a good run in the playoffs. It's just plain asinine to say that they can't win a SB when they've won the vast majority of their games the last two years with basically this D.

It should be pretty easy to tell if the defense improves dramatically. It also appears that this defense is a downgrade from last year.

Edit: and to be clear - I think it's very unlikely the D will improve dramatically so when they win the SB you still have a "gotcha" available.

I had some hope after the Cowboys game but it seems that was likely a fluke.

No, it wasn't a fluke, it was just the one game they stopped playing Prevent from the opening bell, and went after Romo.

They went after Ben on the opening drive yesterday, but he's not Romo, he ate them alive, throwing to the spot where the blitz came from. The blitzing strategy proved disastrous, and was quickly abandoned after that opening drive. The terrible defense that you guys hate on so much went on to give up 16 points the remainder of the game after the adjustment.

Oops, I forgot that KC is the greatest home-dog in MNF history.

Why is that quote from me???

the defense sucks. yay we get it. pretty sure it doesn't suck as much as people think it does though. the 2010/11 philosophy (based on **** BB and players have said as well as watching the games) appears to be "allow no big plays, force offense to run a lot of plays and make no mistakes...hopefully make them settle for FG's" sometimes the other team doesnt make mistakes and when that happens brady needs to be in god mode. he wasnt vs Pit on the road...there are lots of very good QB's who can say that.

i hate to constantly sound like an apologist but the average NE fan seems to be so freaking negative wrt this team (and any other boston based team tbh).

the patriots at best are 4/1 against winning the SB so all the people who say "you cant win a SB with a defense like this" will be like "told you so" 80% of the time.

feck, when they won 18 games in a row in 2007 BUT lost the SB there were people who post in this thread to this day saying "see it doesnt work"....the SB/other playoff games arent some magical games, its football...played against a likely very good team. when your theoretical edge is something between 3-10% you are going to lose often.

they are probably a favorite to get a bye then they will host a game where they will probably have a 55-60% chance of winning. if they win that one, they will have a game where they have a 45-60% of winning again.....if you dont think these numbers are accurate, well then back the truck up in december because you will be able to be all the money you want on the other side.

of course the 20% or so of the time they make the SB and the 10% of the time they lose to GB cuz the packers throw up 30 people will still say "see told you so" basically cant win.

/ramble

I should clarify my stance here. My biggest criticism is that Belichick, who has complete control of all drafting, trading, and coaching has had years to rebuild a defense once the legends of Vrabel, Rodney, Bruschi, etc. left. He's had the complete autonomy in decision-making, the draft ammo, etc. and it's led to one of the worst defenses in the league, outside of Mayo, Wilfork and maybe McCourty it's a bunch of JAGs.

One of BB's old strengths was coaching up JAGs into impact players, there are few or none on this team right now. Someone has to hold Belichick accountable for what we are seeing right now, plain and simple.