You disagreeing basically proves my point is correct.

We cant know how PM would do with no talent around him because he has never played on a team without HOF WR talent...literally ever. Not to mention look at the big deal PM makes anytime he has any sort of injury...talking about his twisted ankle GMAFB like that even matters. Tom Brady has 2 broken hands. TWO. At the same time. And still beat the **** out of PM's team without ever using it as an excuse like PM does.

Peyton Manning is nothing more than Eli with 2 HOF WR's.

Well one dumbass disagrees with you and thinks we would know.

Your post is nonsensical. Anyways, maybe he hits .500. That's a pretty big maybe though. He certainly wouldnt make the playoffs. And the whole season would be a drama-fest as he complained to the media about his injuries and his lack of surrounding talent.

If you like ugly selfish egocentric noodle-arm sellout douchebags who cant win when it counts running your team then maybe PM is your guy. Id take quite a few QB's over him anyday.

For this season? Id pretty much take no one over Manning as long as it wasn't super windy. Definitely a number of QBs Id take over him in a dynasty format given age.

Ive been perfectly happy having Brady of course, but your hatred of Manning is lol.

He's good at meaningless regular season stats though.

It's really weird how he magically always gets HOF WRs. Maybe he's apart of that. I don't think anyone was calling D-Thomas a HOF WR before Peyton came in although he was a 1st round WR. Who knew who the hell Julius Thomas was before this season. Much like who the hell knows who Dallas Clark was after Peyton--I will say Wayne did pretty well regardless of the QB he had. Some teams/QBs are just better at drafting/developing/scouting WRs. As a 9ers fan, my team certainly doesn't have that skill/ability. I guess it's also fortunate that Peyton's guys have always been healthy....but I guess that's a skill as well.

So would you argue Brady has sucked from 2005 until now? He's been very pedestrian in the playoffs both stats and record wide (8-7 since last Super Bowl, right?) despite being awesome in the regular season.

Id argue he's been an elite quarterback, but I guess you think post '04 Brady hasnt been as good as an Eli Manning, Flacco, or Big Rape.

Nothing in that post makes any sense or is even on topic.

The logic is Brady ran like god for his first 3 SBs=God. Now he's run like crap and basically is equivalent to Peyton the last 9 seasons--great regular season stats and no SB wins and marginal playoff performances. So if you are ****ting on Peyton, you are ****ting on your God, Brady.

Why are you guys engaging this obvious trolling from Doran? Kinda a waste of time.

Correct. In fact Peyton has one more rang and the same number of SB appearances since 2005.

To me they have both been elite. If you don't like Manning and Brady because of their recent playoff underperformance, you must be looking for more "proven winners" like Rape, Flacco, or ELIte.

Pretty simple logic. Not shocking our own TradeOC doesnt grasp it.

Completely unrelated but I saw Norv Turner being escorted to the elevator yesterday. They escort all the booth Cleveland guys right near where my seats are.

Not surprisingly, they looked like they're cat just died.

Only AFC teams I don't want to play are @DEN, and Baltimore @anywhere, as they seem to have our number. I mention this because I just heard Baltimore's remaining schedule as they fight for that six seed:

@DET
NE
@CIN

When you barely survive at home against the AP-less Vikings, GL dealing with that slate!

(Maybe a Pats fan shouldn't use the phrase "barely survive at home against...")

http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=331006004 ?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...with-torn-acl/

Cincy is 6-0 at home and lost 2 close OT games on the road. I don't like Cincy much either but they are a pretty legit team. Not sure about them winning in NE but I don't think it's impossible (NE hasn't been unstoppable at home this year or last). Geno is a big loss but their D is still legit. NE without Gronk is a good/above average O and a marginal D...

I can agree with that, Cincy is underrated (especially in the SE ranking thread) and clearly the 3rd best team in the AFC. I just don't fear them like Denver. I think cincy/pats is pretty much a coinflip in both venues.

My opinion now is that they locked him up a year too early ... and got punchdrunk and did it with Hernandez. The story has yet to play out for Gronk, but he was under a 4-year contract and they tried to pay to capitalize on his massive early career production, a move I championed at the time, on record. But they also could have taken an extra year to evaluate his style of play and injury history, and proceed a bit more cautiously. And now it's biting them in the ass. You're right, a lot of hindsight view but they dished that contract out faster than anyone in the BB era. It was atypical of the way this organization has operated in recent times. They gambled harder than they usually do, twice. There was no technical need to pay him at the time, no matter how awesome he was.

Gronk is probably getting PUP'd again next year. We may have to dip back into the TE pool in this upcoming draft because it's such an essential component of the NE offensive system, and that's absolutely shocking given the strength we had there just 2 seasons ago. When things go this badly so quickly you have to evaluate your original assumptions.

Salva you would be a terrible poker player. Stop being so results oriented. We had a clear bink of a draft pick...a potential GOAT TE and he was still young. You gotta lock that **** up like you would when you find a QB. Coming back and saying now that he's hurt that it was a bad move is so incredibly results oriented since most would say its still a great deal for NE just to have him locked up for the next couple years. i didnt hear you complaining when the signing happened in the first place, so dont say now its a bad deal. He will be back, and he will likely still dominate.

Brady has turned his fair share of unknowns into legit weapons... but Peyton knew what he was getting into when he chose Denver, there were weapons to work with and Peyton has turned them into the GOAT offense. I made a post on the main board that too often we waste time trying to isolate the variables. It's obvious Peyton has more to work with than Brady and his bunch of rookies, and it affects production. That's indisputable.

I know the point you're trying to make. I said I championed the move at the time as highly + EV. But now I'm reevaluating the parameters that of that EV calculation, that's all. My point that BB dished out that extension faster than he's ever done to another player under his regime remains correct.

Same situation with Hernandez. We all loved the extension at the time, total +EV move, but what information were the people making that "poker decision" using at that time that could alter that calculation for us if further revealed to us in retrospect?

If you want me to just admit we got 1-outed on the river, fine. Whatever works for you. But it's not so clean in this game as it is on a poker table. And it makes the discussion of what happened far less interesting.

Brady's best years offensively were when they got weapons for him. The difference between Indy and NE, is Indy would regularly draft WRs/TEs in the first couple of rounds and routinely hit. NE drafted a few WRs/TEs/RBs in the first 3 rounds and many turned into nothing (Chad Jackson, Bethel Johnson, Maroney, Tate, Price)--hell the only notable players they drafted high at the skill are Gronk and Branch. Peyton's best 2 WRs were two first round picks (mid to late) taken a few years before he got there (Marvin) and a few years after (Wayne). Neither of which came into college with Calvin type hype. I think you can blame some of the issues on the front offices and some of the issues on the QB.

If you are talking about this year it's true. If you are talking about the last 5 years, not so much. Brady has had Moss, Gronk and of course Welker--all 3 have HOF-esque resumes or talent. Peyton has had Wayne and now Demarius/Welker and I guess now Julius who will see if he can maintain. Decker has been good but nothing really impressive before Peyton got there.

Marvin and Wayne are amazing talents going to the HoF. Luck has taken full advantage of Wayne. This whole discussion of the chicken-or-egg-weapon-Peyton-vs-Brady debate is likely to fall deeply down the rabbit hole, so I'm bowing out. Beats trying to say things on the main board about this and have all the SE Peyton fanboys LOL at me or any other Pats fans. I don't even think Brady is better than Peyton, if that's the strawman. I think Brady deserves more credit and Peyton a bit less on this board.

I am SO not afraid of Cincy. They had to play PERFECTLY (no turnovers, almost no penalties, and they came up with a clutch play almost every time they needed one) to BARELY beat us, in their building. CAN they do it again? Sure. Likely? Nope.

Also, pretty funny MDoran thinks I joined a poker board almost 9 years ago with 4,400 posts and and no interest or understanding of poker. Like mebbe I joined just to be friends with y'all or something.