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Old 03-01-2009, 02:35 PM   #51
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

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Originally Posted by 69sofine View Post
There are some reports that the pats might of turned down more picks from either TB/DET
this is obviously some dumb media rumor (as usual). the offer may have been there too late when the pats already accepted the KC deal, but its absolutely ludicrous to think they would turn down more picks

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I really don't think the gap between Thigpen and Cassel is large at all.
+1

consider also that thigpen has had a full year with that entire offense, cassel going from dynamic supporting cast to not much, really didnt understand this trade

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Old 03-01-2009, 03:53 PM   #52
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

Cassell was in the same offensive system for multiple years.
He now has to learn a brand new system, he no longer has Gaffney/Moss/Welker/an O-line/. He was good for 1/2 a season. He never looked all that great prior. He costs 14 million and you could theoretically lose him in a year...though this is unlikely.

2nd seems like solid value for a possible 1 hit wonder. Course if the Bucs front office weren't retarded the Pats might have ended up with a 1st and 3rd.
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Old 03-01-2009, 06:10 PM   #53
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

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I really don't think the gap between Thigpen and Cassel is large at all.
I really hope this is wrong. I didn't watch much Cassel but I watched every game with Thiggy. His mobility is great, decision making is fine, accuracy over 15 yards is beyond horrible. And the accuracy gets way worse under pressure and late in the games. I've seen him almost throw balls into the stands from the 20 - and he wasn't throwing it away.

I really don't know if you can coach that out of someone. And the biggest fear is that he'd get it mostly under control, but then get in some late season pressure situation or playoff game, and he'd start overthrowing everyone by 20 yards again.
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Old 03-01-2009, 06:23 PM   #54
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

Thiggy blows. Cassel got better as the season progressed and the game slowed down for him, this is something you cant teach, he had a full season in a complex offense such as the pats, so a watered down version of the Cardinals system in KC wont be tough IMO.
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Old 03-01-2009, 07:23 PM   #55
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

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I really hope this is wrong. I didn't watch much Cassel but I watched every game with Thiggy. His mobility is great, decision making is fine, accuracy over 15 yards is beyond horrible. And the accuracy gets way worse under pressure and late in the games. I've seen him almost throw balls into the stands from the 20 - and he wasn't throwing it away.

I really don't know if you can coach that out of someone. And the biggest fear is that he'd get it mostly under control, but then get in some late season pressure situation or playoff game, and he'd start overthrowing everyone by 20 yards again.

it's not a coincidence that qb's w/bad protection tend to look less accurate. all qb's make worse throws under pressure; it's only going to look that much worse when the qb is a rookie.


cassell was basically in a dream scenario in new england by stepping into a system that he had been in for years and even then it took half a season for him to get his bearings. if he comes in and is suddenly making bad throws are you going to say he is inaccurate?
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Old 03-01-2009, 07:31 PM   #56
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

I think the value is great for the Chiefs but it really hinges on Cassel agreeing to a long term deal before he becomes an UFA

I doubt he would sign for any less than something between the Rodgers/Romo contracts

the 34th pick for 1 year of Cassel is obv a disaster
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:07 PM   #57
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

If I was Cassel I would want a long term deal for sure. The chances of the chiefs going like 4-12 and him looking bad are pretty good. secure that bank now
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:15 PM   #58
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

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If I was Cassel I would want a long term deal for sure. The chances of the chiefs going like 4-12 and him looking bad are pretty good. secure that bank now
NFL contracts are not protected so 'get that bank now' is a fallacy. What you mean, I think, is 'get that signing bonus / guaranteed bank now.'
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:58 PM   #59
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

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What you mean, I think, is 'get that signing bonus / guaranteed bank now.'
Of course.

That said, a QB coming off a career year with the tag leverage Cassel has should be able to "get his bank now." The Rogers deal was 6-$65M, with $13 up front and $20 guaranteed.
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:56 PM   #60
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

yeah, but cassell doesn't deserve as much money as rodgers


edit: he's not as good and he is changing teams. he is basically being paid for 8 games of good production
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:00 PM   #61
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

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Originally Posted by tarheeljks View Post
it's not a coincidence that qb's w/bad protection tend to look less accurate. all qb's make worse throws under pressure; it's only going to look that much worse when the qb is a rookie.


cassell was basically in a dream scenario in new england by stepping into a system that he had been in for years and even then it took half a season for him to get his bearings. if he comes in and is suddenly making bad throws are you going to say he is inaccurate?
New England gave up 48 sacks last year, KC 37. And a big chunk of those were Huard's patented "duck, cover, rotate 45 degrees, then try to slowly shuffle away" pressure evasion strategy, and Brody "Unbreakable" Croyle testing his bionic tibula. Albert played great at LT for us last year, Waters made the pro bowl, and the right side was adequate.

Thiggy threw the ball 20 yards over dude's heads with no pressure on him whatsoever. Towards the end of the year they seemed to just give up on passes > 20 yards. He had his first horrible game, then seemed to get his bearings. Then he had some good games and people started to get excited. But he had a tendency to come out completely flat in the second half. He had one good late game pressure drive and 5 or 6 bad ones. Also he seemed to fade pretty bad the last few games of the season, when he knew he was playing for his possible "QB of the future status". Call me old fashioned but yeah, I consider what a QB does under that kind of pressure to be kind of an important piece of the overall evaluation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against giving the dude a chance by any means. I love his mobility. He seems to make good decisions. He doesn't "Favre-out" and throw it up for grabs a few times a game. He seems to have a confident and solid QB presence. He's fun to watch and root for. But his accuracy just blows. Maybe it's just something mechanical with his throwing that a coach can fix, or a hypnotist or something. But going into the season/future with Thiggy as your main and only plan would be about as silly building a super bowl caliber team but heading into the season with Tavares Jackson as your main option. If you have a chance to get a guy like Cassell for a 2nd round pick, and Vrabel, you jump all over that ****.

Last edited by suzzer99; 03-01-2009 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:09 PM   #62
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

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I really hope this is wrong. I didn't watch much Cassel but I watched every game with Thiggy. His mobility is great, decision making is fine, accuracy over 15 yards is beyond horrible. And the accuracy gets way worse under pressure and late in the games. I've seen him almost throw balls into the stands from the 20 - and he wasn't throwing it away.

I really don't know if you can coach that out of someone. And the biggest fear is that he'd get it mostly under control, but then get in some late season pressure situation or playoff game, and he'd start overthrowing everyone by 20 yards again.
uhh this is generally the area qbs improve most in over time. have some dam patience, peyton manning had a 56% completion rate and threw 28 ints his rookie year. you cannot judge a guy based on a single season

and sorry to burst your bubble, but imo there really is little difference between cassel and thigpen. on the bright side i liked what i saw from thigpen from the little i saw last year. the potential is def there. either qb is capable, but i hope thigpen earns the job
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:25 PM   #63
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
New England gave up 48 sacks last year, KC 37. Albert played great at LT for us last year, Waters made the pro bowl, and the right side was adequate.

Thiggy threw the ball 20 yards over dude's heads with no pressure on him whatsoever. Towards the end of the year they seemed to just give up on passes > 20 yards.
NE's high sack rate is because of Cassel's terrible pocket presence imo. I'm not sure there's a starting QB who is worse in the pocket than Cassel. With Brady behind center the year before, they sent three linemen to the probowl and were (IIRC) the best in the league at pass protection. The pats even had the right side of their line back and unshuffled for most of the year this time. I mean, maybe KC does have a decent line, but using last year's sack rate to compare it to NE's isn't fair imo. Cassel is pretty much awful at avoiding pressure.

That said, he's pretty good at throwing from the shotgun (to awesome receivers (against mediocre defenses)). So there's that.
Cassel's not terrible imo, but he is pretty limited. It'll depend on what Haley does with the offense; whether he tailors it to Cassel's strengths or tries to shoehorn him into something. Plays that leave Cassel holding the ball for any amount of time beyond minimal should be avoided like the plague.

Also, the switch to 3-4 seems like a mistake. Dorsey might be an acceptable end, but it seems like a waste, and it means giving Hali a bunch of new responsibilities which he may or may not adept to.
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:26 PM   #64
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

like a lot of other things, Cassel's pocket presence improved as the season went on

the beginning of the year was incredibly dreadful to watch, the "duck your head and your hit OLineman in their back with your helmet" scrambling technique wasn't working
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:27 PM   #65
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

the pats' sack rate more to do w/cassell than the o-line itself. they gave up 21 sacks the year before w/essentially the same o-line (different rg)


edit: it probably looks like i'm bashing cassell, but that isn't what i'm going for. i just think it doesn't make sense to expect him to have much more success than thigpen in the short term and i don't think it makes much sense to commit the type of $ that will be necessary to keep him for the long term
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:37 PM   #66
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

Lol, ok so first it was that Cassel did so awesome under a killer O-line (which you just assumed because it was the Pats I'm guessing). Now all the sacks are Cassel's fault. Gimme a break.

I'm no expert on Cassel or the Pats, but I'm pretty well versed on the Chiefs. Thiggy got his evaluation, he showed some promise but did then faded. There's always a chance he can turn it around. But I bet if you look at 100 QBs in the past with a similar severe accuracy problem, only a handful turn into decent NFL starters. It just doesn't seem like something that can be coached away.

I don't know this, it's just my gut feeling. So I will defer to Scott Pioli's evaluation.
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Old 03-01-2009, 11:50 PM   #67
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

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Lol, ok so first it was that Cassel did so awesome under a killer O-line (which you just assumed because it was the Pats I'm guessing). Now all the sacks are Cassel's fault. Gimme a break.
i'm not sure what you are saying. there is no contradiction in saying the line was good and that the sacks were largely his fault. the pats line was widely regarded to be one of the better pass blocking units in the league in previous years. enter cassel and suddenly they are giving 2 or 3 sacks per game
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Old 03-02-2009, 03:18 AM   #68
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

Your first point was that Cassel did so well because he had a great line and wasn't under pressure as much. But then we see he got sacked more than the Chief's QBs and your point morphs into - Cassel sucks because he gets sacked so much.

So anything good Cassel did was because the line is so awesome and he had no pressure, except for all those times he got sacked, which was all his fault.

Am I in the politics forum arguing anarcho-capitalism again?
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Old 03-02-2009, 03:33 AM   #69
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

In any case, let's look all the 3 rounder QBs the Chiefs have drafted:

Todd Blackledge
Brodie Croyle
Matt Blundin
Mike Elkins
Steve Fuller (had a serviceable career)
Mike Livingston


Or we can look at Chiefs recent 2nd rd picks:

Brandon Flowers
Turk McBride
Bernard Pollard
Junior Siavii
Kris Wilson
Kawika Mitchell
Eddie Freeman
William Bartee
Mike Cloud
Kevin Lockett
Reggie Tongue
Donnell Bennett


Yes that's some bad drafting. But still I think I'd be willing to risk a shot at either of those for Cassell and Vrabel.
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Old 03-02-2009, 12:07 PM   #70
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

you are crazy if you think Cassell is not going to be better than the average of those schmucks

The broncos wanting to give the 12th pick when they allready have a servicable qb speaks to what nfl people think of Cassell. On the radio they interviewed the dude who broke the trade story and he said a top nfl scout who he probably respects the most said he is a top 5-8 qb right now fwiw
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Old 03-02-2009, 12:20 PM   #71
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

Let's see what Cassel can do behind center in KC before we start calling him a top 5-8 QB in the league.

I said hands down that Brady, Manning and Brees are better than Cassell assuming Brady comes back from injury. Then you have Warner, Rivers, Cutler, Romo, Big Ben, Pennignton Rodgers, Ryan who are almost definitely better. Then you have the QB on the Ravens, Hasselbeck (if healthy), Collins (if he returns to form) who have chances to be better. I can't imagine under the KC system that Cassell right now is a top 5-8 QB--I think that scout is day-dreaming. He could be, but it's still a big if to me.
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Old 03-02-2009, 12:25 PM   #72
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

Cassel is going to look much worse in KC than he did in NE. but that's besides the point. Brady would also look much worse in KC. he's the same guy either way, but the results will look different
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Old 03-02-2009, 12:49 PM   #73
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

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Your first point was that Cassel did so well because he had a great line and wasn't under pressure as much. But then we see he got sacked more than the Chief's QBs and your point morphs into - Cassel sucks because he gets sacked so much.

So anything good Cassel did was because the line is so awesome and he had no pressure, except for all those times he got sacked, which was all his fault.

Am I in the politics forum arguing anarcho-capitalism again?
If you watched Cassell at all last year, especially in the beginning of the season, it was very clear that he had zero pocket presence. It shouldn't have been surprising, the last time he saw a live rush for more than a series or two was high school, of course he's not going to be used to an NFL pass rush and how to avoid it.
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Old 03-02-2009, 12:59 PM   #74
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

the 5-8 thing was one guys opinion. I imagine he was taking career into account so that knocks warner off the list. Personally, I think he will be better than at least ben, pennington, cutler and rodgers. you left mcnabb off the list.
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Old 03-02-2009, 01:07 PM   #75
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Re: KC Chiefs 2009: Pioli & Haley Era Year 1

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the 5-8 thing was one guys opinion. I imagine he was taking career into account so that knocks warner off the list. Personally, I think he will be better than at least ben, pennington, cutler and rodgers. you left mcnabb off the list.
he'll have to improve a bunch to be better than them and they are in better systems than him. I wouldn't bet on him being better than Ben, Cutler and Rodgers in the long run.
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