BOSTON RED SOX: THIS IS OUR ****ING CITY - Page 335 - Single-Team Season Threads -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

Posada was probably the best hitting catcher in Yankee history. You could make the point that Varitek was the best defensive catcher in Sox history. They frame the debate on offense vs defense at that position.

The modern "small ball" theory downplays the overall value of defense. Advanced stats may bear that out, but it's pretty hard to quantify the impact of handling a pitcher in game.

Tek caught, what, 4 no-hitters? Random?

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11-16-2015 , 12:14 PM

#8352

bixby snyder

A distant second

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 6,396

I just don't like throwing resources at a closer (basically a specialist who's going to throw 60 innings or so) when you have so many other leaks.

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11-17-2015 , 02:05 PM

#8353

Prawney

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 5,646

Saw a report jose fernandez will likely be traded this offseason. I would love him here

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11-17-2015 , 02:49 PM

#8354

Kurn, son of Mogh

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 16,235

Report today says Ortiz will retire after next season. Maybe they do hang on to Hanley to DH after that.

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11-17-2015 , 05:27 PM

#8355

outdrawed

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 3,707

Kinda surprised. Guys generally don't retire when they're still as productive as Papi. Like, it took seven years of jeter sucking before he hung them up.

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11-17-2015 , 05:49 PM

#8356

Kurn, son of Mogh

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Quote:

Originally Posted by outdrawed

Kinda surprised. Guys generally don't retire when they're still as productive as Papi. Like, it took seven years of jeter sucking before he hung them up.

Jeter's a perfect example of hype over reality. Terrible fielder, slightly better than average hitter. Career OPS+ of 115 (OK, take out the last 4 years and maybe it becomes 120). But an OPS+ of 120 means a solid to very good player, not a superstar.

Take Papi. Career OPS+ of 139 (over 140 the last 2 years)

Not even close.

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11-17-2015 , 07:02 PM

#8357

Captain Luffy

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,253

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurn, son of Mogh

Thoughts on Berra and Munson?

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11-18-2015 , 05:54 AM

#8358

winnercircle

banned

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,782

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurn, son of Mogh

Papi WAR 46.1
Jeter WAR 71.7

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11-18-2015 , 09:43 AM

#8359

Kurn, son of Mogh

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Quote:

Originally Posted by winnercircle

Papi WAR 46.1
Jeter WAR 71.7

I see 50.4 for Papi, but yeah, it's contradictory. I'm at a loss for explaining why someone whose productivity is clearly higher can have that much lower WAR.

Sure can't be Jeter's defense.

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11-18-2015 , 09:54 AM

#8360

royalblue

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Offense from SS is rarer and thus more valuable than from DH, even if the shortstop isn't that good at defense.

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11-18-2015 , 09:57 AM

#8361

Kurn, son of Mogh

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Luffy

Thoughts on Berra and Munson?

Comparing OPS/OPS+ bears out that Tek and Posada played in a much more offensive era. Yogi's offensive numbers are very good considering the majority of his career was before the mound was lowered.

OPS

Posada .848
Berra .830
Varitek .776
Munson .756

OPS+

Berra 125
Posada 121
Munson 115
Varitek 99

dWAR

Munson 11.5/11 seasons
Varitek 8.5/15 seasons
Posada 2.1/17 seasons
Berra -0.1/19 seasons

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11-18-2015 , 01:42 PM

#8362

winnercircle

banned

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,782

Then look on fangraphs instead of the oft-useless baseball reference.

Your numbers on the catchers overlook the fact that Berra virtually never struck out either. I also see Berra's dWAR as 8.7 on your baseball reference.. Where are you even pulling your numbers from?

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11-18-2015 , 02:05 PM

#8363

winnercircle

banned

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,782

I do agree that Jeter was horrible defensively for shortstop standards. But to call him a slightly better than average hitter is hilarious. On base percent of .377 career, which is well above the mlb average. And comparing shortstop, which is not really a power hitting position, to a DH is unfair. Any hitting you get from SS is a bonus, just like the pitcher.

While the shortstop is fielding grounders, doing baserunning drills, batting practice etc, the DH is hitting hitting hitting. Totally unfair to compare the two.

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11-18-2015 , 02:57 PM

#8364

Kurn, son of Mogh

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Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 16,235

Quote:

Originally Posted by winnercircle

Misread on my part. Looked at the row above it.

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11-18-2015 , 02:59 PM

#8365

Kurn, son of Mogh

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Quote:

Originally Posted by winnercircle

I do agree that Jeter was horrible defensively for shortstop standards. But to call him a slightly better than average hitter is hilarious. On base percent of .377 career, which is well above the mlb average. And comparing shortstop, which is not really a power hitting position, to a DH is unfair. Any hitting you get from SS is a bonus, just like the pitcher.

While the shortstop is fielding grounders, doing baserunning drills, batting practice etc, the DH is hitting hitting hitting. Totally unfair to compare the two.

That's just an interpretation for his 115 OPS+. Maybe "somewhat above than average, productivity-wise", would be more accurate.

And you're right about the hitting factor from a ss, which may go a long way to explaining his higher WAR.

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11-18-2015 , 05:15 PM

#8366

winnercircle

banned

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,782

I think you fixate on OPS as if it's the tell-all stat. It isn't. A great example is Edgar Martinez, who blows Ortiz out of the water in WAR. Not to mention he did it with 800 fewer at bats. An extra 16 WAR is so huge. And really, if it weren't for the fact that baseball writers are clueless about baseball, Ortiz wouldn't get a single vote for HOF when eligible.

Not to mention he failed the anonymous PED test in 2003.

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11-18-2015 , 06:11 PM

#8367

Kurn, son of Mogh

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Quote:

Originally Posted by winnercircle

You're preaching to the choir on Edgar. He should've gotten the MVP in '95. Stupid prejudice against DH's kept him from getting it.

I don't necessarily consider OPS the be-all and end-all, I just don't completely understand how WAR is calculated. So in other words, I'm open minded on it.

As to should or shouldn't be in the HOF, that's up to the writer.

As for PEDs, all a positive PED test proves is the player is trying to reach peak performance. I'm fine with PED use.

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11-18-2015 , 08:19 PM

#8368

winnercircle

banned

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,782

There are some articles that explain WAR better than I could. I wish writers weren't HOF voters, as some of them have said some pretty dumb things. For example, one voter claimed he only voted for the "obvious" Hall of Famers (the year Biggio was snubbed). So, the guy votes for 3 people out of his 10 possible votes.

And being fine with PED use is being fine with cheating. I don't have a personal problem with steroids, in fact I think they should be legal for all to use. However, taking an edge that is outside of the rules is just as bad as doctoring a baseball, filming or recording the other teams's signs etc.

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11-21-2015 , 02:42 AM

#8369

youtalkfunny

dumbest smart person his mom knows

Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 21,758

I had no idea that posada was so much more >>>> offensively than Varitek.

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12-01-2015 , 07:28 PM

#8370

Prawney

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 5,646

Alot of money but its not my money. Position of need and got one of the best available players.

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12-01-2015 , 08:10 PM

#8371

ANONN123

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prawney

Alot of money but its not my money

Basically my thoughts as well. By year 4 or 5 of this deal I'm sure it will be an albatross, but if there's a ship or two between now and then it will be worth it. I'm cautiously optimistic about next year's squad

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12-01-2015 , 08:41 PM

#8372

tthree

old hand

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,578

Quote:

Originally Posted by bware

Can't wait to see how much Xander can improve on last years production.

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12-01-2015 , 09:30 PM

#8373

Prawney

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 5,646

As far as Price's postseason record, I saw an good tweet on it how Sox have missed playoffs 5 of the last 6 seasons. We will worry about the postseason when we get there.