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Old 01-02-2016, 09:07 PM   #1951
John Mehaffey
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

^^ This simply isn't true. Car and radio ads for cars describe in audio or prevalent text to describe the terms of the loan or lease. This is something that wasn't done 10+ years ago so maybe they were bullied into changing their practices. (A quick Google search shows the FTC forced the issue and consider not advertising terms for leases to be a deceptive business practice.)

DFS ads do no such thing. I'm not arguing that this is deception or not under the legal language but they certainly are not transparent. I feel like the ads sound like a free bankroll.

I don't think the NY AG's action related to deceptive advertising is frivolous. It isn't a slam dunk either.

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Old 01-02-2016, 10:27 PM   #1952
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Buccofan86 View Post
It's ironic that people hate the government with a passion when they get involved in DFS, but will defend it to no end when anyone suggests that we actually don't need people like Schneiderman, or Trump/Obama/whoever is in the Senate or Congress, etc at all. Can't have "good" government, it doesn't work that way at all in reality. Nothing will happen without them getting a cut. And it has nothing at all to do with protection, or helping the poor or whatever. It's just a straight racket, but people defend other aspects of it (roads, wars, whatever), and then act surprised when it hits them personally in the case of DFS or poker. Not really shocking at all.
Lets get rid of all forms of government! Anarchy everywhere!
That will solve everything


Are you also a conspiracy theorist as well being an anti-gov zealot?
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Old 01-03-2016, 02:55 AM   #1953
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Lets get rid of all forms of government! Anarchy everywhere!
That will solve everything

Are you also a conspiracy theorist as well being an anti-gov zealot?
I won't sidetrack the thread into an anarchy debate, but:

I'd love to hear one solid, logical reason why the NY State lotto is legal (with an actual slogan of "Hey, you never know") while DFS is under fire in NY. The reason given is that there is some sort of "exception" or "carve out" that allows it. Convenient that the government gets to decide those things, no? Who gets the exception, and who gets a cut of the action. And when they make a "mistake" such as with UIGEA/DFS loophole, they can just go back and fix it until they get enough of the pie to keep them quiet.

It's not a conspiracy, it's happening right before our very eyes. There's no actual reason for the lotto being legal, and DFS being "illegal" other than, well:

The government feels it isn't getting a big enough cut

The government feels it is cutting into existing gambling businesses

The government feels it "deserves" a piece of the action

Gov is nothing more than a mob, disguised as a group of careful watchdogs out to protect the most vulnerable. Total garbage. There's also no way to refuse their so-called "protection" unless you want to up and leave the entire country, where you will promptly be greeted by another mob wherever you happen to land. Oh, and you still owe taxes for a decade after you leave. And you have to pay to get a passport to get the "right" to leave. Etc.

The key takeaway here is that these things will keep happening as long as people accept government as some sort of "necessary" evil.

Poker, DFS, sports betting, marijuana, prostitution, and a host of other things have, and will come under fire for no reason other than to line the pockets of politicians and their cronies.

Their only line of defense is to pull out scare card after scare card, to make people fear life without taxes, the DMV, and people like Eric Schneiderman. And, amazingly, it's working better than they could ever imagine...at least for now. We'll see in a decade or so how many people still put up with government, when it's so painfully obvious (to some, call it a growing minority) that it is not necessary at all.
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Old 01-03-2016, 03:25 AM   #1954
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Buccofan86 View Post
I won't sidetrack the thread into an anarchy debate, but:

I'd love to hear one solid, logical reason why the NY State lotto is legal (with an actual slogan of "Hey, you never know") while DFS is under fire in NY.
The New York Lottery was passed through a statewide constitutional amendment referendum in 1967. There is no debate about why it is legal. It is written into the state constitution.

DFS did not bother to go this route. It opened without any legal clarification in some perceived gray area. I think the NY AG makes an airtight argument as to why the DFS sites were wrong.
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Old 01-03-2016, 04:23 AM   #1955
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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The New York Lottery was passed through a statewide constitutional amendment referendum in 1967. There is no debate about why it is legal. It is written into the state constitution.

DFS did not bother to go this route. It opened without any legal clarification in some perceived gray area. I think the NY AG makes an airtight argument as to why the DFS sites were wrong.
I'm not arguing with that, I'm just pointing out how absurd it is that adults en masse continue to think they need government permission to do something like play dfs.
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Old 01-03-2016, 05:09 AM   #1956
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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I'm not arguing with that, I'm just pointing out how absurd it is that adults en masse continue to think they need government permission to do something like play dfs.
In a perfect world without thieves and cheats, you're right.

On the other hand, without any oversight, we ended up with Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet. You could argue that if online poker was legal, those sites never would have existed. That only proves that there must be gambling laws and regulation that keeps sites like Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet away.

The legislative process can fix the situation. It will take an organized, educated fight to do it. I have a mountain of ideas but when I try to educate players it is a total failure. I've just about given up hope.
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Old 01-03-2016, 05:28 AM   #1957
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

There are distinct differences between a black market, a free market, and a regulated market. Theft and corruption are rife in 2 of them.
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:43 AM   #1958
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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I have no inside information here, but I can't imagine that these companies carry enough insurance to cover a nine-figure fine/loss recovery from violating gambling laws. I doubt there are any insurance companies out there that want to underwrite that type of risk for both monetary and legal reasons. If they are insured for this situation, then I suppose that explains why they are fighting.

If the DFS sites fight this and lose, and the NY AG gets a judgment to lien the companies' assets, where will the money come from if there is no insurance?

If this ends in the worst case scenario, the investors aren't going to be running to loan money to pay fines and loss recovery as it will probably put an end to the company's existence.

I don't think this will go that far. I suspect these companies will settle with NY and move on. There must be some level of regret for not just taking the exit door when it was held open with what seemed like amnesty attached like in Nevada.

Fighting this wasn't the answer, in my opinion. The Illinois battle looks like an even more obvious loser to me.

I've always been on the side of the view that the DFS sites were taking massive legal risks so take my pessimism with that in mind. I'm certainly not saying I'm right, but I really don't see anything positive coming out of NY and IL unless the state legislature acts.
You didn't say one thing about player funds. True, no policy big enough. Agreed on the likely settlement.
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:48 AM   #1959
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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It opened without any legal clarification in some perceived gray area.
Just a reminder that in order to get payment processing, lengthy, detailed legal opinions are required and often from top, respected, US law firms with gaming experience.
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Old 01-03-2016, 09:38 AM   #1960
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

I just can't believe that DK/FD didn't have their ads approved by attorneys before airing. One would assume they have some arguments to support their case.

And this sounds kinda funny because I think I heard about it on a TV judge show, but is there a provision in the law that prohibits plaintiffs from allowing their damages to accrue? I think it was a case where one sibling allowed another to borrow his car. The car was illegally parked and towed. Instead of getting his car out in a day and suing his sibling for $150, he let it sit in the tow yard for a month and was now suing for $4,500. Why is this different? If these ads are so obviously deceptive and the AG takes this action immediately, then the damages are hugely mitigated.
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Old 01-03-2016, 09:48 AM   #1961
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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In a perfect world without thieves and cheats, you're right.

On the other hand, without any oversight, we ended up with Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet. You could argue that if online poker was legal, those sites never would have existed. That only proves that there must be gambling laws and regulation that keeps sites like Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet away.

The legislative process can fix the situation. It will take an organized, educated fight to do it. I have a mountain of ideas but when I try to educate players it is a total failure. I've just about given up hope.
Again, don't want to go down the anarchy road too far here, but I'd argue that's a failure of the (government) court/law system.

If private courts existed, people would be able to sue poker sites that committed fraud, and would likely be able to hold people personally responsible for said fraud.

Just like no one has any "legal" authority to take action against their drug dealer or bookie for stealing, committing fraud, etc, the same holds true here. Thus we see mob justice, turf wars, lots of violence and so on. You can see the difference with alcohol sales. When they were outlawed during prohibition, people were harmed by illegal booze, and there were similar turf wars to the drug war right now thats still ongoing. That was all a product of government forcing the justice system underground.

There is no "credit rating" type system for local bookies or drug dealers outside of word of mouth reputation. There's also no legal avenue to pursue if you are stiffed or sold something that isn't as advertised, so to speak (aka fraud). That's 100% government created. They write all laws, and enforce all laws. I'd rather see someone sued for fraud (or, better yet, run out of business via boycotts) than shot dead over a drug deal gone bad, but sadly, government won't allow it because drug dealers often simply shoot anyone who tries to compete.

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Old 01-03-2016, 09:58 AM   #1962
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Above might appear to apply less to dfs/poker than sports betting or drugs simply because dfs/poker rely heavily on a huge, multi state player pool. But the concepts are the same. Government is basically threatening anyone with violence (sites, payment peocessors) to stop offering a product, in this case dfs, until their demands (money, equity in sites, control of how they are run, etc) are met. So it's actually worse, in that the government sets laws, enforces them, and then abuses them to gain more power.
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Old 01-03-2016, 10:00 AM   #1963
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by THAY3R View Post
There are distinct differences between a black market, a free market, and a regulated market. Theft and corruption are rife in 2 of them.
Ya, no theft or corruption in the "regulated," multi trillion dollar stock/bond/currency markets, lol.

Everyone should read the article below.

Enjoy!

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...l-yet-20130425
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Old 01-03-2016, 02:34 PM   #1964
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

I'm sorry if you think I was making an argument for regulation
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Old 01-03-2016, 03:40 PM   #1965
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Just a reminder that in order to get payment processing, lengthy, detailed legal opinions are required and often from top, respected, US law firms with gaming experience.
I think we are past the point we can blindly trust DFS lawyers. They were wrong in Nevada. Nobody even bothered to fight it. I don't think it is a stretch to say they are wrong in some other states. Did you read the IL FD brief?

Several sites used to assert UIGEA made them legal in 45 states on their legal pages. Most sites stopped making that argument late last year because it was obviously wrong.
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Old 01-03-2016, 04:17 PM   #1966
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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I think we are past the point we can blindly trust DFS lawyers. They were wrong in Nevada. Nobody even bothered to fight it. I don't think it is a stretch to say they are wrong in some other states. Did you read the IL FD brief?

Several sites used to assert UIGEA made them legal in 45 states on their legal pages. Most sites stopped making that argument late last year because it was obviously wrong.
the dfs lawyers are also the same poker lawyers that were involved prior to black friday.
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Old 01-03-2016, 04:42 PM   #1967
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

You'd think they would spend whatever it takes to assemble the best possible legal team, considering the hundreds of millions of dollars at stake.
Instead it seems like they have a bunch of hack lawyers just making **** up as they go along.

"Whoops, guess we were wrong again. Oh well, just another state we lost, no biggie."
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Old 01-03-2016, 05:44 PM   #1968
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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I think we are past the point we can blindly trust DFS lawyers. They were wrong in Nevada. Nobody even bothered to fight it.
After a near 6 years existence of DFS, NV declared a category of gaming for them. I'm not sure what you want them to fight? The fact that NV made it legal w/a license? Why would they fight for it to be illegal? Obv, NV has only 2.5million people and the cost of licensing is high, so they walked away.

I guess the lawyers were right until NV changed their take on DFS.

Quote:
I don't think it is a stretch to say they are wrong in some other states. Did you read the IL FD brief?
I have it bookmarked to do, only briefly scanned.

Quote:
Several sites used to assert UIGEA made them legal in 45 states on their legal pages. Most sites stopped making that argument late last year because it was obviously wrong.
I'm no lawyer. I know it's state by state to which gaming category they end up in and how such legality is determined. I know the interpretation of the UIGEA carve out certainly opened a legal opinion to operate in some states.

Last edited by Joe Tall; 01-03-2016 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:21 PM   #1969
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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I'm no lawyer. I know it's state by state to which gaming category they end up in and how such legality is determined. I know the interpretation of the UIGEA carve out certainly opened a legal opinion to operate in some states.
This article explains the reasoning behind why sites no longer advertise UIGEA compliance - http://www.legalsportsreport.com/650...ase-and-uigea/

Quote:
The FSTA minutes

In those minutes, the legality of DraftKings golf and NASCAR fantasy contests is discussed, as is DraftKings’ compliance with the FSTA’s paid-entry contest operator charter, which states that operators must follow the UIGEA. From the minutes; the “Jason” referenced is DraftKings CEO Jason Robins:

Jason acknowledged that Golf and NASCAR do not comply with the letter of UIGEA, but argued that UIGEA was written when daily fantasy didn’t exist. … He also pointed out that UIGEA is an enforcement statute – not the “governing law.” He indicated that state law supersedes UIGEA.

And then:

Jason stated that he does not that operators should not need to operate consistently with UIGEA if they can operate lawfully under state law. Jason said that DraftKings has done extensive testing and can demonstrate that fantasy golf and NASCAR are games of skill and are therefore legal under state law.

And later in the minutes:

Jason indicated that DraftKings would be proposing a change to the paid operator charter. It was also discussed that if the change doesn’t pass, then there will have to be a decision of what to do next since DraftKings will be out of compliance with it.
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Old 01-03-2016, 10:23 PM   #1970
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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You'd think they would spend whatever it takes to assemble the best possible legal team, considering the hundreds of millions of dollars at stake.
Instead it seems like they have a bunch of hack lawyers just making **** up as they go along.

"Whoops, guess we were wrong again. Oh well, just another state we lost, no biggie."
Stop posting until you actually research the FD/DK legal teams,Boies,Mastro et al. are hardly hacks.
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Old 01-03-2016, 10:24 PM   #1971
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Are FD/DK in court tomorrow?
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Old 01-03-2016, 11:42 PM   #1972
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Stop posting until you actually research the FD/DK legal teams,Boies,Mastro et al. are hardly hacks.
Ya well for having clients who run what you claim is a legal business, they sure aren't doing a good job of keeping the doors open are they?
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Old 01-03-2016, 11:44 PM   #1973
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

So thoughts on one do the sites withholding payments for a contest for 4 hours and not saying anything than issuing a stat correction?
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Old 01-03-2016, 11:56 PM   #1974
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Obviously they should make sure the stats are correct before paying out. 4 hours is nothing. Sorry you lost your NBA early only contest
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Old 01-04-2016, 12:02 AM   #1975
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DFS Industry Discussion Thread

My point is not saying anything to the people in the contest instead of them thinking it's over

And I'm guessing you were in that slate too?
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