ahhahaha!! jokes

Phil is the stone cold nuts, period.

Without a doubt Ivey is the one player you must always aim at beating as a sign of a achievement and even then you probably had some slight luck edge! He is cool , calm usually (but he has lost it some times when delivered cold decks and bad beats so dont think the guy is pure ice, noway, it just requires a bit of bad luck to get him started , probably a lot more than most others).

There has got to be a reward in life for investing a solid effort in an activity from a young age. He furthermore looks to have a decent character , he is not in your face arrogant and he is still young enough and very active. He has everything going well for him . If you ever wanted to use a poker player as an example of a decent effort and intellect pick him over many other celebrity poker pros. Easily . And i think aside from the prop bets irrelevant garbage (ok funny at times too ) he is very good for the game precisely due to his cool character and calm nature. This is how it should be. Do not for a moment take my prior long post as an attack on the guy . No i simply want to offer objective balance to it all. It is very possible that the flips you see occasionally , some of them neutral and many of them even negative (for a tourney when you have skill edge) are part of a larger plan to create image that allows him to capitalize in other spots and not be pushed around easily. Its just that unlike a cash game at a tourney your life does matter and whatever metagame one has here clearly it cannot be a priority over your very survival when tables change so often and you are that famous. When he was like 15 mil well before the final table was made and dropped to like 4-5 mil at some point before recovering a bit back , he clearly did so by losing too many not required by logic flips like the ones mentioned . In a game where people are shoving as light as in my examples and are getting desperate you dont have to make it easy for them. You just pick little better hands than the ones we've seen and take them down from 60-40 or 55-45. Why do you have to be the one that is under 45% in these cases and hoping at best for a near neutral chip ev flip instead of a clear positive one(especially due to ICM thinking and the massive extra bias for a player of that caliber whose stack clearly ought to be worth at least 20% more than the same stack in the hands of another purely due to skill and reading abilities/intimidation etc) . There is absolutely no intimidation when you makle it so easy calling them light. Thats all i mean.


I have absolutely nothing negative to say about his cash game playing style. All the times i have seen him i have never spotted anything questionable to a degree that would matter to talk about. That may mean i have not seen many games or i am not the right person to spot things accurately yet even with all cards revealed . But it certainly ought to be due to the fact he plays solid game too. He has folded many times at some very tough to read places successfully. This indicates the guy is significantly aware of what is going on in the other guys' inner worlds.

The bigger secret in my opinion of all these good players is their ability to exploit magnificently their positive streaks. Even Brunson has hinted on it although he didnt describe it the way i envision it done properly (mathematically studied i mean) . It still may be the same thing though. When you can mentally destroy the opponent each time you have a little bit better than average luck and totally throw him off his game and produce massive tilt and mental breakdowns with your aggressive style then you clearly capitalize brilliantly on the prior loose style and you take them a bit off their A game for all future exchanges by adding an emotional component to their brain. That will not be the case with a natural TAG as often. He will not get that explosive stack tripling and even 5x event in the span of an hour or less as easily. He just wont be given the ferocious easy action. I seriously think these guys have figured out exactly how to capitalize on the natural frequency properties of lucky streaks and remain totally cool when running bad to avoid the reverse effect when unlucky. My point is they have designed a kind of game that feeds on good luck a lot more than other styles. Their winrate depends on the coupling of good luck with their game. A nonlinear coupling so to speak. They thrive on good luck massively. And since good luck will eventually come to everyone it is vastly important to be able to make a killing each time you get lucky. Without a doubt i have seen Ivey get real lucky in many televised events. But you have to ask whether he has made a consistent effort to fine tune his game as many successful dynamic Lag players in a way that capitalizes on lucky streaks optimally. He is not the Lag type that Durr is , he is less careless but he too capitalizes heavily on good luck. Maybe their natural instinct towards gambling elevates that quality to exploit positive luck massively. Theya re not afraid to get lucky or unlucky thats all. I cannot say that for myself. All my life i have seen luck as the enemy, the component i want to tune out as irrelevant, not the friend you need to chase. Well all i say is that there is such a thing as proper chasing of luck that is still not what a gambler does, although it might feel similar. Lets learn this from guys like Ivey.

I am sure many understand what i say here. All of us will flop that 0.1% full house with the trashy 43 or 23 or 72 occasionally. But how many will be able to play in such a way that when this happens you take the entire stack of the other guy because they just purely hate your guts by then lol!!!? Imagine now having 2-3 back to back such caliber lucky developments during a period of 50-100 hands that you have heavily tilted the others at the table with audacious plays (but without overdoing it like maniacs or stupid bullies) . Can you see what i mean? Can you imagine a solid TAG guy enjoy the similar explosive result? I doubt it. Now reverse and give that luck to your opponents and see how being very cool and totally disciplined will prevent the same exploitation against you. You can instantly spot that attitude in guys like Ivey and that adds to the illusion they are luckier than most others further feeding the frenzy and irritation of the opponents! You simply wont be able to totally destroy him when he is unlucky. He will only lose a bit but not go on a spiral.

He is very good at reading strength in others. You will rarely see him paying a big hand because he got trapped. He can spot risk and step out which further irritates the opponent. The only time i have ever disagreed with the read he put together on a cash game situation is here when facing another famous for being loose guy ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0b1HQAvTbU

and even that is nothing big really. When he plays in cash games he is a total logic machine with excellent information processing and reading abilities. Thats why he is such a great example. If he tightens only a bit his tournament game he will soon enough have more bracelets than even Hellmuth and in the end of his career probably even double the number if he keeps active at it. Guys like Booth in that video example are going after luck trying to inflict mega tilt on the opponent (whether he folds or calls and gets a bad beat the hatred is built either way!). You can spot here the nature of that loose streaky game. I can see KK or AA getting destroyed here in a similar case that the semibluff was called and hit, further leading to a miserable session for the unlucky guy that is now totally full of hatred towards the loose sob that delivered the audacious bluff and bad beat. And in the flip side that the AA,KK win the hand the guy is intantly painted as a loose idiot which will help him get paid nicely on his next mega hand if he switches gears carefully. Now isnt that what nonlinear coupling to luck is all about? To manage good lucky streaks to assist you heavily without enduring similar collapse when the reverse nasty luck strikes. Guys like Ivey have managed to totally be immune to such mental games founded on lucky streaks. Thats why you rarely see him angry. I bet he is the guy you are angry at instead!

yap agreed,... these are the guys who arent in the mood to discuss something serioulsy but think they are looking good after posting something that the post is to long or doesnt make sense.

Phil Ivey isnt lucky because he got there where he is he just worked so many hours a day to get there and im sure that hes still looking to improve like every player.

I think we shouldnt aim to reach such a skill level because most of us will bust by trying to achive it and its isnt a possibility. We can take such a successful player as our idol and learn from the greats in the game.

Obviously he is a freak. What I really think puts people like Ivey apart and above even very good solid players is that he has GAMBOOOOL in him. Now ok lots of poker players have gamble in them and that actually makes them bad (ie Gus Hansen) but I think with PI he has tamed the beast and holds the reigns so to speak. The guy shoots dice and puts huge -ev donk bets on the Lakers all the time....you won't EVER see DN or Doyle doing that. Lots of poker players on this board will mock anyone who consciously makes an -ev bet, but there is something to accepting the gambling part of poker that puts him above the rest imo.

FYP

The problem I have with your post is that it is taken out of context.

It is so easy to sit back, arm chair quarterback once you see all the cards and start spouting off about what someone should or shouldn't do.

But when you are playing 1000s of hands at the table against opponents whose skillset and styles are all over the freaking map, you better be varying your play to match.

The one hand where you were talking about him betting into the raiser with A 9. I'm surprised someone with A 9 would call that bet despite being the raiser. So Ivey had a good read on him, made a play, and was called by a donkey. Then river comes A, he realizes he can't get the donk off his hand so he surrenders, checks, and mucks. That is poker.

In Tournament poker, you aren't always going to have the best hand, you aren't always going to be able to push people off their hands, you aren't always going to have the right read. You have to make the most of what the table/situation gives you.

As for his play, he is also banking on his table image and a host of other factors that are way above our level as we are not Phil Ivey.

And you have to understand, that in a field that large, nothing is standard. You have a whole range of different styles, Internet players, home game players, live players, Euro players, etc. etc. and if you think all these styles play the same then I have a bridge in Brooklyn i'd like to sell you.

DId you see some of the bluffs made in WSOP??? There was a guy who pushed all in with 75 people left on COMPLETE air on a 5 5 7 K board into a preflop raiser with something like 70BBs.

Anyways, my point is that it's easy for us to sit back, cherry pick and say, "Oh, he misplayed this or that..."

But truth is, taken into the context of 1000s of hands against players with a huge range of skills and styles, I do not fault the play of any decent player.

Good point.

Phil Ivey pays a lot of attention to what villain is doing and then makes calculated moves against them. Which is what we all do when we are in the zone. His zone is just bigger and better furnished than most.

cause someone has to be, and he put forth the effort/has the skills/and continues to work harder than any other poker player out there/still loves the game.

"Physical strength" ??

"OI foureyes! il arm wrestle ya for the pot?!"

I think he meant stamina.

Ivey once said that sometimes it takes twenty hours of play for someone to make a significant mistake. One can stay up all night, that doesn't mean that one is capable of outplaying the opposition.

He is The Jedi Master. Not only can he will the cards to fall, but I think I would fold a royal flush to his reraise out of pure fear. Newbie makes a completely valid point - Phil Ivey played 3 hands poorly. Obviously he sucks then since he doesn't win 100% of the time, only 99.99%. djk, elky, and jovial must suck too, since they did not all win all of the hands in every game. Good thing there is a newb to poke a hole in his game. I'm sure newb has many youtube videos of himself winning/losing $500K pots. I don't so I'm going to bow down to the master, Phil Ivey.

I didn't read any of this post, but I mean Ivey thinks at such a deep level that he probably couldn't even tell you his own hole cards half the time.

Anyways, so what, some of his reads were off, he wasn't playing based on his hole cards anyways.

ive been watching him all along on the wsop 09 and he has knocked out so many opponents, but he also gets awesome hands, and goes in with trash hands but picks up a straight etc.

his table presence is insane, people fold with AK preflop after he raises preflop

[x] works hard at what he does. 'nuff said.

This post makes him sound so so scary .... and the really scary part is it's probably mostly true.



I really don't know too much about Ivey and I don't know what made him so good .... but what I'm pretty sure about is that he is the best poker player ever as of today. As far as popular games of today go I'm not sure he's actually the best at any one game ... and he's definitely not the best at every game ..... but it seems as though he's like top 5 or something at every single game there is. It's sick. And then all the money he gets from Full Tilt. Basically success beyond imagination. And nobody should give a crap about November and I doubt Ivey cares all that much (but I don't know him so couldn't say .... just guessing.)

Nobody 1/5th decent folds AK to a Phil Ivey raise pre-flop or any open raise pre-flop for that matter. Actually it's pretty much always better (depends on stack sizes) to just 3bet shove with AK than to fold to an open raise.

that's only because ESPN wants to show Ivey in a good light. It doesn't show the times when he started the day with 1.5 million chips, then went down to 200k.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, I think he was almost the chip leader towards the end (before the final table), but now he's like 6th or 7th in chips...


ESPN really only shows the hands where he is running extremely well, and just running over everyone.

Everyone saying that its natural talent is stupid. There is no such thing as natural talent. The only thing that separates the best people in any given field** from anyone else is the amount of work they put into it.

Ivey is so good because he puts more time and effort into getting better than anybody else.



**except for some sports

Yeah, watch him on pokerroad.com. After making the November Nine, he's asked what is he going to do... He says, it's only 12(pm), the night is still young, he's going over to Bobby's room to play some more.

Note, this is after putting in a grueling 13 day schedule at the wsop main event.

Ouch, no matter how naturally talented Phil Ivey is or is not, that's probably the reason why he's so good. He's intensely dedicated to the game.

You know, people say that, and then, when they are faced with the situation, they freeze up.

Did you see some of the bubble folds during the WSOP? People folding KKs, and QQs as the bubble neared. Stress and fear changes everything and when you are heads up against Phil Ivey, amazing how tight your A-hole can pucker.

Just sayin. Its not as easy as you make it seem. Some people can handle the pressure, most can't.

He double barrel donk bets a lot

I find it amusing that one can still defend his A8o call to all in or the ATo raise all in to 22 small stack or the JJ to QQ all in reraiser . You guys suck at objectivity if you think all these examples are not important.

The ATo all in to the UTG 10bb stack raiser is ******ed. He is lucky the idiot had only 22 and played it as a raise (how moronic too) . A UTG raise with 10bb stack is rarely a hand worse than ATo and usually one that is very better. And he ignores also the BB after him that can easily have a super hand 3-4% of the time . That is enough to but a huge fist in his EV . So like 3-4% of the time he is in the 25% equity level and the rest in the 41%. He has absolutely no fold equity agaisnt the poor UTG raiser so he is making a clear negative EV move . This is chip EV negative let alone tournament EV or Ivey tournament EV all these 3 things very different! .

Also the A8o all in call to A9o is totally ******ed.
You raise 2.5 bb lol how tiny is this raise from button to do what with it (are you seriously ever stealing anything with 2.5bb???) And then the 20 bb guy at sb shoves and A8o is enough to call? Really? Tell me if you are against Ivey's raise what do you go all in here for your tournament life? Because any reasonable guy only does that with 66+,A8s+,KQs,QJs,JTs,T9s,A8o+,KQo and in fact to not be a moronic ahole you dont have to shove with bs hands that are not pairs or top AX. Why would a shove with KJs or KTs or KQo even make sense here when the flat call is only 2 bb or the fold is so cheap 0.5bb. Why would one want to sell himself so cheap after surviving up to that level . 20 bb is like 40-50 more hands before you even are at 10bb all in or fold mode. How many will be eliminated by then??? We are talking 100-200-300k differences in prizes. If Ivey is so loose you can double up through him so easily by not being ******ed like that . So to be real logical here you put him all in with 20bb for your tournament life only with mid to top pairs AK,AQs and sometimes maybe even a couple suited connectors for fold equity and if not for some not totally crashed equity if called but thats really it. You can add AJ,AT,A9 if the guy is loose but it ought to end there really. So yes i take as an all in at this spot this; 66+,A8s+,KQs,QJs,JTs,T9s,A8o+,KQo and i am highly generous too. So what is A8o vs that range? A ridiculous 35% for 20bb . So he enters a 20+20+1+0.75=41.75bb pot with 35% and therefore he exits with 14.6 for a net loss of 2.88 bb vs folding . Nice job!!! -2.88bb/h error, great. Tell me about context again in this case. I dont care what the others are doing . When i am Ivey my stack matters more than the idiot's and for this reason i will bully them and do fancy things and whatever if i can afford it but i will not give them a negative EV all in for 20bb or more very often . Because this is exactly how he managed to drop from 15 mil chips to 4 mil at some point before recovering to 9 mil , by engaging in so many flip and sub flip situations. No, i say wrong absolutely no context is missing when you are down to 20-30 people left and you have such a huge skill differential and reading abilities. Why is he making it easy for the opponents? Let them kill each other and exploit them from a position of strength when they are desperate.

There is little lack of context in the pots is gave as example. If you think people play loose you can exploit them nicely and you dont have to make it too easy for them if your stack is healthy.

Just ask yourself what kind of hand is a hand you play as a raise from UTG when down to 10bb . A raise of 4 bb by the way that is clearly a non foldable raise at this stack. Tell me how many hands are played like that from UTG vs 8 others? 22 is in fact the worse possible of the list and its still ahead of ATo. And i with the ATo, i will ignore the BB and put the small stack all in with my ATo. Probably looking at a pair or top AX kind of hand or KQs and even that is pushing it . Really what guy raises 4bb with 10bb total? You cannot believe how lucky he was that he only had 22 here. 22 is either a fold or an all in at that spot to maximize fold equity. Anyone who calls is a flip coin or better so the UTG player made a terrible play here missing a ton of fold equity with a hand that can only depend on fold equity as a shove from UTG since a call is nearly deadly (oh unless its by Ivey! lol) . And its against this kind of terrible players that you go all in with just ATo to make their life easier against you a top rank superplayer. YES sure very logical!

GAMBLING pure and simple. Admit it.

That said i have nothing but good impressions for most of the time i see how he plays . He is relentless and can play all day . I just wanted to show you all that the guy is very mortal and that he is at pure heart a gambler with flip coin addiction syndrome moreover the supernatural skill overall . Could very well be that he was very tired playing all day . Fine. So be it. But he does gamble. All you have to do is watch poker after dark and see him flip flop colors for 20k a flop. Is that serious or what in a cash game of 200k stacks to flip 20k per flop over ...colors!!!!


Guys you need to realize that we agree , in cash games you can be all over the place and mix it up and play games and appear loose and then crash them later because every negative EV move is a future investment that returns 10 fold , but in a tournament you have only one life. You cannot afford to do many such ridiculous flips .

Its amazing to me that people may still find absolutely no problem with at least 4/7 examples i gave . In some of them he is risking 30% of his stack really on less than 0 chip ev flips. How can you defend that as part of a meta game?


Do not for a moment assume that i use a few limited examples to take down a super player. NOWAY. NEVER. He cant be taken down but by someone that is born determined to spend 20 years to do it from age 5. He is in the top 9 now at WSOP and has probably 30% chance to win it. But he may just convert that to 10-15% with the overdoing flips. Its ******ed to try to do something so maliciously myopic as to attack Ivey's skill . We learn from such guys. But that doesnt mean they are above our ultimate life long teacher which is mathematical logic itself. I only wanted you to see that he some times did things that make little sense . When you are that good and you play against people that tend to make mistakes you do not ever want to make it easy for them to double up from you. Your chips ought to be labeled specially with bright fancy colors that play music lol. They are never the same value as the chips of others that play bad. So exploit them dont help them! Even ICM breaks down when people play ******ed.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I watched him play before, and a lot of his decisions were questionable. Remember, he says that most of what he's learned is from playing, not necessarily studying the game.

But it certainly wasn't from him being tired, or making off the wall decisions. He's a machine, and has been known for his ability to play 24 hours straight.


Yeah, he makes a lot of mistakes preflop, but if you watch his videos on pokerroad.com, he mentions things like losing with JJ to Q8, and I think he mentions something like his 22 losing to Q5 (don't get me on his exact cards).

Ivey certainly isn't immune to coin flips, they go 50% for him and 50% against him, so what?

Too long my friend, waaaay too long.

About your analyses of Ivey's hands, the mark of the great players is that their actions will seem crazy to avarage players. Like Schopenhauer said: for the common man it is very hard to distinguish the genius from the lunatic.