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Old 09-13-2017, 07:54 AM   #26
just_grindin
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Re: When to bluff in spots people think "we're never bluffing"

Thanks for that great example hand. It gave me a lot to think about. So much so I keep going back and forth and what my betting strategy both in terms of range (specifically best bluffing candidates) and bet sizing.

Edit: speaking of which we're just trying to fold out 5's and maybe some medium strength 6's from villain's range with our bluff, right? I assume villain is snap calling a T.
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Old 09-13-2017, 08:08 AM   #27
Bob148
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Re: When to bluff in spots people think "we're never bluffing"

Right. Now contrast that with this action, where blockers become quite important:

100bb no limit holdem

I raise 3x in the cutoff, button calls, small blind calls, big blind calls.

TJKr

checks through.

Q same suit as the King

small blind bets 8bb, big blind folds, I call, button folds.

J completes the flushdraw making a Royal Flush possible.

big blind checks and it's on me.

besides the obvious value bets like the Royal Flush (1), straight flush (1), quads (1), full houses (?) , and big flushes that are numerous in my range, I'm not even sure that I'd bet a small flush or a naked straight vs good opponents. Just seems thin to me unless my opponent either can fold a straight, or will call three Jacks. Both are possible, but unlikely to be part of a winning strategy imo; thus I'll ignore those possibilities for this exercise.

I think this is a poor spot for the small blind to bluff on the turn because it's a four way pot; there's very little chance of the small blind successfully bluffing the turn immediately; I'd bet exclusively for value in that spot with a very tight range.

So what does a good bluffing range look like in the cutoff on that river? I'm not sure but it probably includes a Royal Flush blocker, a straight flush blocker and or a quads blocker. T9o with the ten of clubs makes four combinations plus J9o with the 9 of clubs makes six combinations. Do I even have 12+ value combos? I guess it depends on how often I check the flop; the more I slowplay sets, 2 pairs, royal draws and straight flushdraws on the flop, the more effectively I can bluff on this river. I'm not even sure; I only chose this action and runout because it allows big hands as possibilities. Curious how you guys and girls play this river heads up in position.

gogogogo

Last edited by Bob148; 09-13-2017 at 08:32 AM. Reason: morning math is bad.
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:52 AM   #28
ArtyMcFly
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Re: When to bluff in spots people think "we're never bluffing"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
So what does a good bluffing range look like in the cutoff on that river? I'm not sure but it probably includes a Royal Flush blocker, a straight flush blocker and or a quads blocker.
In massively multiway pots there's not a whole lot of scope for bluffing the flop, let alone the river.
You probably have no bluffing range in the CO on the river, because you should hardly call with anything on the turn. I think you raise all your Ax straights on the turn (calling when you're not closing the action is pretty bad for most of your continuance range), and only call with 9x straights with backdoor flush draws (J9s, T9s, 98s, 97s) and your sets. Calling on the turn with hands like J9o/T9o would just lose, as they are drawing to a chop at best, and can't call if the BTN raises. So on the river after calling the turn you should always have a flush (J9s/T9s/98s etc) or a boat/quads (KK/QQ/JJ/TT, on the occasions where you checked the flop).

I think the board looks like this after SB's turn lead:

(EDIT: You visualised it with 2 clubs, I used diamonds.)

I'm not sure what the hell SB is doing on the turn, but he's repping huge strength. He shouldn't be overcalling pre with much to begin with and there aren't many hands that make sense as leads on the turn (especially for a large sizing) when it's still 4-handed. I think AQ/AJ (nut straights) would probably work better as check-raises or check-calls, KJs/QJs two pairs are possibly check-calls, along with 99 (idiot end of the straight) if it has a flush blocker. He'd kind of have to be mad to lead big on the turn as a bluff, when it's pretty likely one of the 3 opponents has an ace.

If you want to find a more common/useful spot where blockers are important for the bluffs, just analyse a heads up pot (e.g. BvB) where one player triple barrels, and the other wants to jam over a river bet.
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:10 AM   #29
Bob148
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Re: When to bluff in spots people think "we're never bluffing"

Quote:
I think you raise all your Ax straights on the turn (calling when you're not closing the action is pretty bad for most of your continuance range),
I'd go for the overcall from the button there.

Quote:
I'm not sure what the hell SB is doing on the turn, but he's repping huge strength.
Indeed. That was the idea in order to create a very narrow range situation.
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