Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Poker Theory General poker theory

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-15-2018, 12:41 PM   #1
vanvliet
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 147
What GTO means

Iíd say GTO play is playing in a way that minimises the maximum value an opponent can obtain.

Is that right?
vanvliet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2018, 12:43 PM   #2
vanvliet
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 147
Re: What GTO means

Also a question. Is there a difference between playing GTO and playing in a Ďbalancedí way? If so, please explain ... thanks
vanvliet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2018, 12:49 PM   #3
vanvliet
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 147
Re: What GTO means

Iíve read various articles about GTO so am not looking to be given links to articles like that, Iím just asking in my OP whether that statement is correct

Thanks
vanvliet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2018, 08:03 PM   #4
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArtyMcFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 8,629
Re: What GTO means

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanvliet View Post
Iíd say GTO play is playing in a way that minimises the maximum value an opponent can obtain.

Is that right?
Maybe this is just semantics, but I think of the GTO strategy as the one that maximises your own EV given the assumption that villain (or villains) is/are trying to maximise his/hers/theirs.
In a heads up pot, minimizing your opponent's EV is essentially the same thing as maximising your own, but in multiway games, it seems odd to think in terms of minimizing other people's value. The aim of the game is to maximise your own profit.

More thorough definitions are given in the sticky threads for this forum.

Balance is a feature of GTO play, but it's not precisely the same thing, as bluffing combos that help balance your value-bets get folded when there is a lot of action. e.g. To take an extreme example, you can't balance a 7-bet jamming range, because you fold some of your bluffs to a 4-bet, and the rest to a 6-bet, leaving you with just the nuts.
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2018, 09:28 AM   #5
vanvliet
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 147
Re: What GTO means

I like your quote that balance is a Ďfeatureí of GTO play. We can probably leave that one there!

That sticky thread on GTO was very interesting thanks. I see the term Ďminimaxí is used in post #9 and also I think later on by Jerrod Ankenman. I think itís a useful way of thinking of things as I think it neatly captures the essence of the GTO concept:

Letís say both Hero and Villain are playing GTO. Letís say the payoff for V in a particular spot is X (X can be a positive or negative number). Btw Heroís payoff is therefore -X but this isnít of interest.

Letís say that Hero deviates from GTO play and Villain is a nemesis villain (full definition in the sticky thread, but basically this is a villain who magically sees your strategies and adjusts optimally to maximally exploit you).
Payoff for Villain then becomes X+Y (where Y is a positive number)
I think the point here is that the defining characteristic of the GTO play was that it minimised the Vís maximum value over all the strategies he could use.
I find this helps me think about it.
Thanks again, thatís probably enough for now .... this discussion has already been very well done in the sticky thread I think.
vanvliet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2018, 08:40 PM   #6
whosnext
Pooh-Bah
 
whosnext's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: California
Posts: 4,752
Re: What GTO means

GTO = Minimax in heads-up play only.
whosnext is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 11:40 AM   #7
Pcallinallin
formerly the original donkey penis
 
Pcallinallin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: '\_(o.o)_/'
Posts: 4,945
Re: What GTO means

Why would you want to sum up game theory optimization into a tweet. Whatever definition you decide on better have a damn epsilon in it.
Pcallinallin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 12:55 PM   #8
rm81
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The DM
Posts: 1,224
Re: What GTO means

GTO is a way of life.
rm81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2018, 06:08 PM   #9
Eudaimonia
centurion
 
Eudaimonia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: 2 Tone 240sx
Posts: 158
Re: What GTO means

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanvliet View Post
Also a question. Is there a difference between playing GTO and playing in a ‘balanced’ way? If so, please explain ... thanks
Balanced = In the poker world "balanced" is often used with people who are making guesstimations of actual GTO play or is used just as a word to illustrate points, well balance is mainly use to describe what a GTO strategy looks like lets put it that way i'm guessing it was thrown around a lot back in the day

GTO/Nash equilibrium = Depending on the type of game you are playing there can be a nash equilbrium strategy such as things like chess
Eudaimonia is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online