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value of hands in non-percentile terms value of hands in non-percentile terms

10-19-2017 , 05:22 PM
Hello,

Usually, the strength of poker hands is described in terms of percentiles, that is, on a 0-100 scale. For example "KK is a top 1 percent hand". In other words the strength of the hands is forced ranked. This of course causes the distribution to be uniform by definition.

There must be other metrics of strength which have not already been forced ranked - such as, percent of time this hand winds against 2 random cards, or expected value of this hand. Is there a reference or program that contains such metrics?

Thanks
value of hands in non-percentile terms Quote
10-19-2017 , 08:12 PM
If we are strictly speaking preflop, then the EV of a particular starting hand will vary depending on what seat you are in, what action has already taken place, and what players are left to act. Further, the actual EV of a holding will vary with your own skill versus your opponents. KK will obviously be played from any position and probably belongs in all your 2b 3b 4b ranges. A program that is popular for studying starting hands (as well as post flop play) is called pokersnowie. There are other programs as well. You can also compute your own starting ranges with the math provided by some high level 2+2 authors, in particular Matt Janda.

-Rob
value of hands in non-percentile terms Quote
10-19-2017 , 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by windsurfer1
Hello,

Usually, the strength of poker hands is described in terms of percentiles, that is, on a 0-100 scale. For example "KK is a top 1 percent hand". In other words the strength of the hands is forced ranked. This of course causes the distribution to be uniform by definition.

There must be other metrics of strength which have not already been forced ranked - such as, percent of time this hand winds against 2 random cards, or expected value of this hand. Is there a reference or program that contains such metrics?

Thanks
There is a great deal of information available on this topic. While starting hand rankings (percentiles) are often the center piece, typically much more information is provided.

First note that there are several "competing" hand rankings discussed and utilized in the poker literature and poker community. The reason is that different scenarios can be used to evaluate starting hands.

Sklansky-Chubukov evaluates starting hands by how much a heads-up player would be willing to bet with his hand when it is revealed to his opponent. Besides the hand ranking itself, these betting maximums are also provided and give you a great deal of information.

Another very popular hand ranking lists starting hands according to their equity vs three other random hands (all going to showdown). Again, besides the hand ranking itself, these equity values are also typically provided.

You can search on 2+2 or search the internet and you'll find a treasure trove of information on this topic.
value of hands in non-percentile terms Quote
10-20-2017 , 08:29 AM
There are all kinds of measurements, charts and ranking systems if you search for "poker EV ranking charts" or something like that.
One non-linear visualization I particularly like is this one, which I believe was based on the EV of hands in a large sample of fixed limit games:



AA is a good hand, but A2o is not, evidently.
value of hands in non-percentile terms Quote
10-20-2017 , 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
There are all kinds of measurements, charts and ranking systems if you search for "poker EV ranking charts" or something like that.
One non-linear visualization I particularly like is this one, which I believe was based on the EV of hands in a large sample of fixed limit games:



AA is a good hand, but A2o is not, evidently.
This is exactly what I was looking for - although I play no limit not limit. Thanks all for the tips I'll see what I can find.
value of hands in non-percentile terms Quote
10-28-2017 , 10:40 AM
I'm a sucker for a pretty graph and this thread doesn't disappoint in this regard.

Quote:
There must be other metrics of strength
I'm in the camp that believes that the only metric of preflop hand strength that should be considered is long term ev. Turning this corner is so important to understanding where the money comes from. Of course, one can only conceptualize poker stuff to the point of one's own understanding of the game, so here's some salt: ****

I've been looking for the next step in my understanding of poker, and I'm still looking. Any tips on which direction I should turn is appreciated.

Quote:
AA is a good hand, but A2o is not, evidently.
I think those evs are from way back when cbetting the flop 100% in heads up and 3 way pots was standard. Now, with the introduction of flop checking strategies, bluffcatchers and weak draws have gone up in value to the effect that opening ranges can be wider than they once were.
value of hands in non-percentile terms Quote

      
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