100NL 6max. I was getting into this situation the other day where whenever I opened $3 from HJ or CO, the player with position on me (fish) would always call, and a reg (SB/BB) would squeeze to $20. He didn't squeeze every time, but enough to the point that he was obviously getting out of line.

Reg and I were about 100 bbs effective, fish varied from 70-100 bbs.

I get the obvious adjustments - tighten up my opening range, and start shoving over the large 3bets with a wider range. But how do I use math to decide how much to tighten up opening range, and how wide to shove as a function of how often he's 3-betting me?

It occurred to me it might be +EV to shove any 2 in this spot in a vacuum until he adjusts, but not sure. When considering what range I might shove, I think it's worth noting that it should be very profitable for him to flat small-med pairs in this spot so I'm inclined to discount them from his squeezing range, but maybe if the fish and I are just folding too much it's even more profitable for him to squeeze them anyway, not sure.

I could also try min-raising to give him a bit worse price on that size of squeeze, but the rest of the table was 2 fish, 1 unknown and 1 nitty reg on my right, so I prefer 3x with the fish at the table.

FWIW the 3-bettor doesn't do anything else particularly weird and I believe he's a winner at these stakes and higher games as well.

What are your stats? What are his? Can you approximate?

from the sounds of it, it seems like you two got yourself into a leveling war

I'd even suggest it was you who got out of line more than him, he was exploiting your exploitably high steal rate

it sounds like you were raising most of you HJ and CO, which at 6max is not ideal as it's more MP than LP essentially

if he felt you were stealing too often (which is what I feel too) then he probably decided it was better to steal back but at an amount too high for you call as he wouldn't want to play you OOP

also, don't call people fish, it's not necessarily accurate, but more importantly it's not descriptive enough to change anything

It's played on a site where tracking software is banned so can't comment on the stats. I'm not sure where you get the idea I was opening too much from HJ/CO? I mean it's possible I was, but I didn't say anything about my opening range.

Taking a quick look at Equilab my opening range from CO when folded to me was probably around 30-32%, from HJ probably around 26-28%. These are my estimates for the ranges I started opening at this table, I tightened them a bit after the reg kept 3-betting to 20 bbs.

Of the times I opened, fish called close to 100%, and of those times the reg 3bet over 50% to this unusual sizing. I haven't played a ton with the reg but he seems like a pretty tight player otherwise, it's fairly obvious he was getting out of line in this spot though particularly choosing a 3bet sizing I can't 4-bet against without shoving.

I think fish is descriptive enough for this scenario, but for clarification: he played too many hands preflop (no idea on his VPIP, probably something like 50-70%) always for a limp or coldcall. Puts in too much money postflop with presumably marginal hands before eventually folding. Hadn't seen him try any big bluffs.

Really the salient part of my question is that there's dead money (fish) calling behind me, and reg is 3-betting an amount that I fold to often enough for him to auto-profit here (and sizing it such that I can't flat and keep the fish in the pot or 4-bet bluff, like I otherwise would with some holdings). I want to know how I should be thinking about constructing a range against him here using math, both my opening range and my shoving range vs. his 3-bet.

Assign some percentage of hands you think he's 3betting with, then calculate his MDF after your shove to know which hands he needs to call and then simply shove anything that`s
+EV against that. Remember to calculate what happens when the fish wakes up with AA too

Sorry, what's MDF?

+1

Minimum defense frequency - in this case the range for calling your 4bet shove

Fish can mean many, many different play styles, nits can be fish too - just say two passive call stations next time

1 The way you phrased it made it sound like you were opening pretty frequently. I was tried to be careful not be accusatory, just relaying how I interpreted it.

2. HJ/CO playing 6 handed is not as premium a spot as full ring. I know it's 6 handed so open your range yadda yadda yadda, but I think you're playing too wide a range.

3. Over the course of a single session, it was possible you were opening as often as 50% of the time playing those ranges. It wouldn't be all that out of the ordinary to get a good run of cards while also having the guys in front of you open when you were getting dealt the cards you wouldn't open with anyway.

My meaning is if you are opening a range of 32% from the CO, over a 10 hand sample, you'll probably get that range dealt to you 3 times. It wouldn't be insane for it to only be folded to you five time, in which case you're viewed as opening 3/5 hands. I don't mean to be patronizing, just don't know a better way to explain your image could easily be much wilder than your range - especially on a site that forbids tracking software.

4. I still think those ranges are too wide.

Top 32% http://www.pokerhandrange.com/range/32 includes hand like Q5s, K2s, T7s, etc. If I see someone regularly opening from the CO with that, I'm widening my 3bet range dramatically. Especially if #3 tricks me into thinking he's probably opening wider.

I think you can get away with that from the CO, but 28% from HJ is suicide in my opinion. There are 4 players behind you left to act, 2 are eager to defend, the other 2 have position on you. Just not a good spot to play a wide range.

I would probably do the same thing he did if I were in his position unless you started 4betting me - in which case - back to the lab

Just my thoughts

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it and sorry if my original wording was unclear. I haven't played poker for a long time (see: confusion on MDF, which I still have to search to find out how to calculate it) and it's definitely possible I was opening too loose from these positions. It's just that the thrust of my question was on how to deal with villain's 3-bet sizing in general (i.e. suppose I opened a few % less hands from each position and he's still doing it). I suspect this is what the MDF answer gets at so I'll look that up when I get a minute.

That being said:

I don't know if there's a way to link to a custom "non-linear" range, but I definitely wasn't raising those from CO, I wasn't even opening K7s/Q7s. I tried selecting the hands I think I would've opened from CO in Equilab and came up with this:

22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A8o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o.

which works out to 30.92%.

I gotta run but I will try to input what I think I would have opened for HJ later.

yeah the computer ranges are never exactly the human ranges, i think that's fine for CO

a lot of that range I think is a massive leak at HJ though, I could be totally out of my element and wrong here, but I would take a look at your actual results with various ranges at the HJ and CO position and see if you are indeed playing J9o and 64s profitably, my guess is no, if it's yes, please tell me where you play, I'd love to sign up

It sounds like, and again, emphasis on the "sounds like" you've been playing very aggressively and up until now haven't run into other good players who'll adapt and play back at you

This is too loose from the CO unless the BTN's a huge nit.

My standard readless CO open range is: 55+, A2s+, K7s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75+, 64s+, 54s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo+

So cut out all hands that are likely overall losers with rake. I would likely take out the bottom of my standard range in the situation you describe of a wide caller on the button and a likely loose squeezer from the blinds.

Also, my MP open range is something like: 66+ A3s-A5s, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s+, 87s+, 76s+, 65s+, 54s, AJo+, KQo+
And again, in the situation that you described I would cut out the bottom of that range.

You shouldn't be 4bet shoving like you said earlier. Just call tight and 4bet to a normal size of about 25-33 bb's (this is on the larger sizing to account for the fish's cold-calls) in this spot with your stack off range and mix in some 4bet bluffs with the A3s-A5s hands or occasionally your KQ hands and more rarely a hand like 65s. Also throw in a couple flat pre traps w/ AA KK at a low frequency for more balance.

Did you read my OP? How am I 4-betting to 25 bbs when he makes his 3bet 20 bbs.

You're right, I was a bit tired when I wrote that out. Just jam over then wider than you normally would, and try to play tighter pre with ~ the ranges I listed. Maybe jam something like TT+ AQs+ AK A4s-A5s and call 88-99 KQs, AQo. That should slow him down and make you less exploitable.

MDF is the frequency villain has to continue in order to make a 0 equity bluff indifferent between bluffing or folding. We should NOT be using MDF to decide the range villain should call a 4-bet with, because all hands have equity pre-flop. It's not very useful for deciding the range we should continue vs. 3-bet either. MDF's greatest use is on the river or in HU spots facing a raise.

If you have no calling strategy, MDF is going to get you really close to GTO against this sizing. However if you do use a calling strategy then you'll need to defend a little higher than MDF, because villain's bluffs have equity.

Here villain is risking 19 to win 7.5, so you and the fish together need to defend about 28.3% of the time to make villain indifferent between squeezing/folding rags.

This isn't going to slow him down at all. It just validates his strategy to play that tight, unless you think the fish will defend enough to keep him in check.

1. Open tighter.

Simple math

You are in CO, he is in BB
-- he is risking 19 to win 7.5
-- you and BTN together need to fold around 19/26.5 if you are only responding with 4 bets. ~ 72%
-- assume BTN continues with 10% of his flatting range ( just a guess ..could be off)
-- so BTN folds 90% of his range
-- you should fold 80% of your opening range and 4 bet shove the rest ( assuming you only respond with 4 bet shove or fold)

Optimal CO open in a non ante game is around 25-27%
You could 4 bet shove 5-5.5% of top hands and be done with it

99+, AJs+, AQ+ ~ 72 combos



You are in HJ, he is SB
-- he now needs to get through the BB as well
-- he is risking 19.5 to win 7.5
-- the rest of you combined need to fold around 19.5/27 ~ 72% of time
-- BB will wake up with a hand he likes around 3% of times (JJ+, AK)
-- BB folds 97% of his range ( assume BB either cold 4 bet shoves or folds)
-- CO still folds 90% facing this squeeze
-- you should fold 82% of your range ( if you only respond with a 4 bet shove or fold)
-- you 4 bet shove 18% of your HJ open range
-- optimal HJ open in a non ante game is around 20-22%
-- you 4 bet shove around 4% of hands ~ 52 combos
-- TT+, AQs, some combos of AQo

This is assuming you only respond with 4 bet shove or fold

When he goes this big ..it is a good strategy to just 4 bet shove or fold

Let me know where to send the invoice for my time.

I will go one step further. I have faced similar spots and it is very annoying.

I would like to have some standard solutions.

How should the squeezer respond? Assume the weak player behind you always folds when you 4 bet shove cause he is never trapping any strong hands ( JJ+, AK)

Against squeezer's strong calling range ( JJ+, AK)...you weakest 4 bet shoves have around 30% equity.

When he calls, you guys play a 204BB pot ( or 203.5 if he squeezed from BB)

You have 30% equity in this pot with your weakest shoves.

You end up with 61.2 BB

You lose 35.8 BB compared to just folding your weakest 4 bet shoves.

If he folds, you end up with a 124 BB stack ( or 123.5 if he squeezed from BB)

you win 27 BB with your weakest 4 bet shoves compared to just folding those hands.

Compared to folding, you lose 35.8 BB when you get called. you win 27 BB when you don't get called.

To make you indifferent to jamming your weakest 4 bet shoving hands, he needs to call with 27/(27 + 35.8) of his squeezing range

that is 43% of his squeezing range

ask yourself what hands will he call off with facing the 4 bet shove?
and how many hands he is squeezing?

will he defend 43% of his squeezes? if not, you can 4 bet shove even more aggressively than the range I have mentioned in the above post.


Let me know where to send the invoice for my time.

Tightening up pre with your initial raise is the only advice IMO that is absolutely true.

"4bet bluff more" is overrated advice to counter frequent 3bets. Usually players who have unusually large sizing or 3bet frequencies are not the type to be exploited by such an obvious counter. I would go as far to say that *on average* 4bet bluffing a player who 3bets way too much is catastrophically bad.

Of course "4bet more in general" is still true, your 99, AQo, and AJs will be automatically profitable 4bets where they're more marginal in normal circumstances. Its possible small pairs and and stuff like KQs will be profitable as well but everything depends on villain's 4bet call range, and the exact 3bet range. Even just 15% 3bet is probably too much but judging on the OP I can't really tell if villain is that or 30%, 50%, or 75%. There's a world of difference between those numbers.

Also want to put out that if villain is using the low end of those numbers its pretty close to being correct. If there's a 100% calling fish in the pot, you almost want to just treat his call as just a blind and now you're playing 2/5. The preflop sizing is on the larger size is but is perfectly fine just in order to size up for value. Doubling or even tripling your 3betting range is warranted. Your raise first in range should also be a lot larger against such a player. Why merely 3x if you're always getting calls? Go 4x, 5x, and keep raising it up till you see a fold.

Final thought is also that you should probably just be calling a decent amount. If villain is good enough to be a winner in online 100NL then *if* you can construct some sort 4bet shove range to exploit his wide 3bet range, then your edge is pretty small. When you're describing a huge fish calling behind your value should come by seeing flops and outplaying them. The 3betting villain's cbet should actually be pretty low under these circumstances since stack depths will be too shallow to run multiple barrel bluffs. So you'll see flop checked to you plenty and you'll have opportunities to run semi-bluffs or thin-value bets against just the fish.

You can use MDF to calculate what he has to defend against our shoves to remain unexploitable and it works perfectly. You need to factor in the equity your bluff has when called. So for example, when we shove A5s at 100bb we are not risking 100bb, we are risking something like 40bb because we get the other 60 "refunded" thnaks to our 30% equity. This is also why 4betting more than about 1/3 of your stack and not going all in is wrong.
Maybe you misunderstood and tought the 4bet is not a shove, or that I adviced to use MDF against the 3bet
Even then, in any other situation, MDF is the MINIMUM defense frequency, not the exact defense frequency, this means that yes, we do need to defend at a higher frequency when we have calls on any street before the river, but that doesn`t mean MDF is useless, you can use it as a guide to know when you are being too tight or you can even model your calls as some kind of fractional defense and get some frequency that way

Interesting that you wouldn't open 22-44 from CO? What makes 22-44 different from 55-66? Sets are likely to be bottom sets with both groups, both behave the same way against 3-bets (ie. if you're gonna 4-bet bluff sans blockers your hand is irrelevant and if you think calling the 3bet is good, then there's very little difference between them as well since a small set is a small set or if you're gonna float or bluff raise the flop because the flop missed AK/AQ type hands there isn't a huge difference either). And if the opponent just calls and you cbet, there's not much difference either.



Though to be honest, I might be a bit out of the loop. I used to be a pro like 10 years ago but took a long break from poker, now only slowly trying to get back at it. I play a very aggressive style but most advice seem to be on the tight side (like, tighter than the last time I read 2+2). That said, I do make over 10bb/100 in the micros but that's just the micros of course. People still make lots of easily exploitable mistakes there, even in 2019.

Personally I open all pairs from the CO, and otherwise his range is very close to mine as a default. I haven't thought about what I would change in this dynamic, though.

55 is just a better hand than 22. Continuing ranges are going to include some 2x-5x hands that 55 is going to dominate, especially facing the BB. 22 is always an underpair (unless you bink the 2 obviously) whereas 55 is sometimes going to beat bottom pair. 55 also flops straight draws slightly more often and gets counterfeited slightly less often.

Facing a 3-bet they are almost the same, except that 55 does a little better against suited wheel aces that often get 3-bet. I am not sure but I think they're both usually folds to a BU 3-bet and calls against a 3x OOP 3-bet 100bb deep. In this spot against a large sizing I'd fold both of them probably. A lot of hand play better. Facing a BB calling range 55 is clearly better, though.

Realistically though, for the difference between 22 and 55 to actually materialize you need rather specific circumstances.

-Set vs set and opponent has exactly 33 or 44. Set vs set is already rare and such a specific situation is so rare compared to every other hand your opponent might have when you flop a set that it doesn't matter much in the long run.

OR

- Preflop all in against ATC, where 55 does a bit better. Then again, this is not a common situation and when it is, you probably wouldn't wanna play 55 at all.

OR

- A showdown where the other player has a pair of treys or fours (be it due to pocket pair or flopping such with something like A4). This is probably the most relevant and common situation but then again the keyword is showdown. If I raise 22 or 55 and cbet, an opponent often folds a pair of treys or fours. Or bluff raises with us very likely folding. Or someone bets on future streets, making the other player fold. Alternatively, if I call the opponent's raise preflop with 22 or 55 and the opponent cbets I usually fold, bluff raise or float with the intention of folding to a barrel or betting if the opponent checks. Again, a showdown is unlikely. And when it happens the opponent has to have a very exact hand, for there to be a key difference.

I'm not saying 55 wouldn't be SLIGHTLY better than 22. Just that the difference is small enough for them to win about the same, considering how the game is played in reality.

If we were talking about a pair of sevens or eights compared to 22 I'd agree. They are a tier above, often make a middle set instead of bottom, occasionally make an overpair, sometimes beat the pair between top and bottom etc. And are better in all in preflops against very loose ranges too.

It could be excluding 18 extra combos of three bet folds is beneficial to your overall strategy.

It's also possible that the games the user plays in are more aggressive making those extra combos important.

Against aggressive players that can't hit the brakes, you don't shove any 2, that is a fish adjustment. you lower your standards and treat top pair as the nuts, hold your nose and get it in. Those guys are the slot machines that will pay you off.