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Old 05-05-2021, 09:24 PM   #1
DooDooPoker
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Spade Theory Question vs 5x Opens

Hey guys - I have been compiling a list of 5x opens on Bovada since they let you see showdown after 24 hours.

So far I have (14) 5x opens as a sample size.

1) AKo
2) KK
3) AKs
4) AQo
5) JTs
6) 76s
7) 74s
8) TT
9) J3s
10) 42s
11) QQ
12) ATs
13) AKo
14) AKo

Let's just say for arguments sake. That a 5x open is completely polarized - and the only strategy your opponent would have is to 4bet or fold.

How would our preflop strategy shift in this spot?

Would we now rather 3bet hands with Ax blockers over hands like 88/99/QJs?

Would we ever have a calling range in the BB?

I don't have any 5x preflop sims but I am curious as to what people think the proper adjustment would be.
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Old 05-06-2021, 10:33 AM   #2
MicroDonkYT
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Re: Theory Question vs 5x Opens




These ranges are BB vs SB 3x and 5x respectively. You play much tighter, but still have a calling range vs 5x. You shift to more 3betting.
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:22 AM   #3
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Re: Theory Question vs 5x Opens

Vs. a pure 4-bet or fold strategy you shouldn't be 3-betting and folding hands with poor blocking effects like 88-99. If you 3-bet such a hand it should be with the intention of continuing vs. a 4-bet, but 88-99 probably aren't doing amazing there, probably breakeven or marginally profitable at best. I think it's pretty clear that you want calls, since a lot of your hands won't be profitable 3-bet bluffs due to poor blockers, and don't want to continue vs. a 4-bet, but are still profitable calls.

I imagine you probably want to use minimum sizing vs. an opponent who *literally* only 4-bets or folds, with hands that block the 4-betting range as bluffs, and hands that have solid equity vs. the 4-betting range as value.
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Old 05-06-2021, 02:51 PM   #4
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Re: Theory Question vs 5x Opens

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Originally Posted by MicroDonkYT View Post



These ranges are BB vs SB 3x and 5x respectively. You play much tighter, but still have a calling range vs 5x. You shift to more 3betting.
Thx for the sims but these are GTO ranges.

I am talking about something else. Mainly - what if the 5x opens are completely polarized and your opponent only 4bets/folds vs your 3bet.

Let's say we have a hand like A5s in the SB - UTG opens 5x and it is folds to us. Should I be 3betting this hand or just straight folding? What about calling.

Now does a hand like A5s become a 3bet vs 5x and a hand like TT become a fold?
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Old 05-06-2021, 02:53 PM   #5
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Re: Theory Question vs 5x Opens

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
Vs. a pure 4-bet or fold strategy you shouldn't be 3-betting and folding hands with poor blocking effects like 88-99. If you 3-bet such a hand it should be with the intention of continuing vs. a 4-bet, but 88-99 probably aren't doing amazing there, probably breakeven or marginally profitable at best. I think it's pretty clear that you want calls, since a lot of your hands won't be profitable 3-bet bluffs due to poor blockers, and don't want to continue vs. a 4-bet, but are still profitable calls.

I imagine you probably want to use minimum sizing vs. an opponent who *literally* only 4-bets or folds, with hands that block the 4-betting range as bluffs, and hands that have solid equity vs. the 4-betting range as value.
Thanks for the response.

I think our strategy would change in the SB specifically. Meaning, we no longer use a 3bet/fold strategy.

Let's say UTG opens 5x - we have KJs. I can see calling here being more profitable over 3betting. Not only will we almost never get squeezed since the initial raise is so large but we become less capped the larger the initial open.
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Old 05-06-2021, 08:06 PM   #6
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Re: Theory Question vs 5x Opens

It's an interesting spot. It really comes down to their range construction to be honest.

If they literally only 4b/fold, then you'd want to use the smallest possible 3bet size to get the best price on fold equity. You'd 3bet with value that dominates their value, and bluffs that have good blockers but aren't quite strong enough to call.

Given the size of the open, you're getting a terrible price on a call. So I imagine flatting ranges would be tight. But it really comes down to how their range is constructed.

Doodoo, in the original post in the microstakes forum, HJ posted the blind and checked, CO isolated, action on SB with KJs. In this case I don't think your range assumptions are correct. CO likely has a very linear range in that spot.
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Old 05-06-2021, 09:01 PM   #7
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Re: Theory Question vs 5x Opens

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It's an interesting spot. It really comes down to their range construction to be honest.

If they literally only 4b/fold, then you'd want to use the smallest possible 3bet size to get the best price on fold equity. You'd 3bet with value that dominates their value, and bluffs that have good blockers but aren't quite strong enough to call.

Given the size of the open, you're getting a terrible price on a call. So I imagine flatting ranges would be tight. But it really comes down to how their range is constructed.

Doodoo, in the original post in the microstakes forum, HJ posted the blind and checked, CO isolated, action on SB with KJs. In this case I don't think your range assumptions are correct. CO likely has a very linear range in that spot.
I like your idea of 3betting small - what size would you go vs a 5x?

I think you are right in theory about CO's range here. But the data doesn't support what Villain should be isolating with.

If he 3x or 4x - okay I can see your point.

But over the (albeit small sample) hands I have so far - the 5x threshold is very often TT+/AK/AQs.

I want to get more data on this before saying anything with a high level of certainty. But over the 16 hands I have - it is mostly premium hands (not hands like KJo/88) and then some low suited junk hands.

Bovada is unique in that I get to see showdown hands after 24hours so this type of analysis probably can't happen on other sites.

I have 5 more hands from today's session that I'll be adding to the archive. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Old 05-07-2021, 12:25 PM   #8
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Re: Theory Question vs 5x Opens

I could definitely see 5bb opens being very polar. But this is an iso raise, not an open. Are you filtering specifically for iso raises?
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Old 05-07-2021, 04:20 PM   #9
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Re: Theory Question vs 5x Opens

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Originally Posted by tombos21 View Post
I could definitely see 5bb opens being very polar. But this is an iso raise, not an open. Are you filtering specifically for iso raises?
I have iso raises mixed in my sample. I should probably distinguish between the two but iso raises are usually 3x-4x.

Most 5x iso raises vs 1 limper are polarized.
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Old 05-07-2021, 09:54 PM   #10
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Re: Theory Question vs 5x Opens

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Originally Posted by DooDooPoker View Post
I have iso raises mixed in my sample. I should probably distinguish between the two but iso raises are usually 3x-4x.

Most 5x iso raises vs 1 limper are polarized.
5bb iso's are a common exploit against fish that overlimp and overcall. Might as well go for value.
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Old 05-09-2021, 08:17 AM   #11
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Re: Theory Question vs 5x Opens

5bb iso's usually aren't polarized at all, they tend to be pure value. You definitely min 3bet against an opponent that doesn't call the 3bet. Hands like 99-88 are calls but your calling range is small, you mostly 3bet. And calling a hand like KJs in the sb would suck, you don't have any need to bluffcatch hands like that against a huge bet in the sb
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