Quote:
Originally Posted by mongoose0141
This was really helpful, thanks. So hands like top pair/overpairs with a flush draw are generally hands to keep betting on the turn? My thought was that they might make better check/calls as they make good bluffcatchers with a flush blocker. If we bet our TP/overpairs with a FD OTT, are we just calling down with all of our overpairs/strongest top pairs even without a blocker?
The top pairs and overpairs with flush blockers/backdoors make more sense as turn bets than the hands without flush blockers because they literally have more equity against the calling range, and can even continue if they face a raise. Just consider the difference between AA with a club and AA without one. The former can get called by Qx, TT/99 (with a club) that it's beating, but it still has a draw to the nuts when it's losing to 88, 77 or KJcc/JTcc. AcAx obviously blocks the nut combos of AQcc/AJcc, so there are very few hands that it is losing to. Since AcAx is pretty high in your range, it can be bet for value and get called by worse. If villain raises, you won't fold a draw to the nuts.
But what about AA with no club? It's still beating Qx, but it's drawing dead vs flushes (which it doesn't block at all) and almost dead vs sets. AA with no flush backdoor/blocker is therefore considerably weaker. You don't want to bloat a pot OOP when your equity vs the continuance range is much lower. There's also a decent chance you'll win at showdown if the turn checks through. You're much less likely to win at showdown if you bet AA (no club) and villain doesn't fold. You also hate getting raised on the turn if you potentially have no outs.
When you check-call the turn (with top pair, for example), the river card obviously affects how you play the river, as does villain's bet-size if he chooses to bet. You wouldn't call with
all your bluff-catchers on the river (or even the turn), but you'll call with the best ones. It might be the case that KQ (no club) should actually x-fold to a half pot bet on the turn, as you can continue instead with the flushes, sets, overpairs and pairs with a blocker/backdoor that you didn't barrel with. With a well designed checking range, KQo might be so low down your range that you can jettison it as a -EV continue. You'll make so much by check-raising flushes and calling with sets and pr+draws that the hands that won't ever be able to hero-call on the river can be folded on the turn.
One wrinkle I'll add is that you shouldn't necessarily be betting the flop in the first place with various hands that many players would c-bet without a thought. It would be perfectly fine to check the flop with AA/KK and most KQ that don't contain a club blocker. You rarely want to start with a c-bet OOP on boards where you're going to get floated a lot and the turn and river are going to be difficult to navigate.
Sometimes when people ask "What do I do on this horrible turn?" the answer is
go back and check the flop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongoose0141
Also, with what frequency should we be checking the nut flush on the turn looking to check/raise?
That's hard to say. It depends what the overall ranges look like and how often you expect villain to bet if you check, but I would think that the
nut flushes should be check(-raised) at a very high high frequency. Not only does checking the nuts give you a chance to get two bets in on one street (and try to stack a set or lower flush), it also 'protects' the hands that you really don't want to play for stacks with. (i.e. your check-calling range that has SDV).