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Old 05-19-2017, 09:39 PM   #1
Kitsune101
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SRP check/raise fold vs reraise shove

Hi, I am trying to understand something theoretically using PIOSolver.

Scenario:

BN 60% range vs BB call (PIOsolver bbvsbn range). The particulars of the range isnt that important here. Flop KT8r. I choose to give BN a 80% bet sizing and a raise sizing of pot. The huge sizing is on purpose (i am actually a PLO player and big sizing here is common).

The scenario that I really want to emulate is a shove vs a check/raise and to see how often the BB folds. BB is folding close to GTO at 53%.

BN is only shoving strong made hands and OESD. With no pure bluffs why is BB folding GTO, shouldnt BB be constructing the range to fold less than GTO.

OESD will be printing money as a shove if BB folds 53% of the time and those are the bottom of BN range. A zero equity bluff will be breaking even. I am thinking shouldnt the bottom of BN shoving range (worst semibluffs) breakeven?

Thanks
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:01 AM   #2
Shamway99
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Re: SRP check/raise fold vs reraise shove

Strong polarised range shoving always "prints money". On the other hand Btn must have calling range under pressure and then on the contrary well constructed BB x/r range had the same advantage.

"With no pure bluffs why is BB folding GTO, shouldnt BB be constructing the range to fold less than GTO"
No deviation from GTO is -EV. Some way it is by definition, we cannot exploit GTO game by calling more/less. You could do it only when you found pio made a mistake with shoving range.
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Old 05-20-2017, 09:13 AM   #3
ArtyMcFly
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Re: SRP check/raise fold vs reraise shove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune101 View Post
The scenario that I really want to emulate is a shove vs a check/raise and to see how often the BB folds. BB is folding close to GTO at 53%.
What do you mean by "close to GTO"? Do you mean "close to MDF"?

The BB should call with hands that make money (or at least break even) against the optimal shoving range. In some spots it might mean the BB calls 53%, in others it might be 60% or 45%, and the difference is due to the imbalances in range strength, aka "range advantage". The pot isn't shared out equally with 50% going to one player and 50% to the other.
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Old 05-20-2017, 03:56 PM   #4
Adebisi
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Re: SRP check/raise fold vs reraise shove

If you're modeling this for PLO purposes, you need to account for the fact the bb's bluff check raising range on this board should consist of hands like QQTx/JJTx/AJTx/AJ8x/KJ75/KQ65/etc. Also if button is using an 80% flop cbet sizing, a lot of the more bareish OESD's will probably be put into his checkback range.
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Old 05-23-2017, 03:09 PM   #5
getmeoffcompletely
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Re: SRP check/raise fold vs reraise shove

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Originally Posted by Kitsune101 View Post
I am thinking shouldnt the bottom of BN shoving range (worst semibluffs) breakeven?

Thanks
No because semibluffs still have equity and button has the option to call facing the check raise.

So if BB were to check raise and call the shove with a wider range, trying to bring down the EV of BU's semibluffs, then BU would just stop shoving OESD and call them instead.

Being in position with a strong draw will always have positive EV. So at optimal play what the BB is doing is making the OESD indifferent between and calling. It can't make it indifferent between calling and folding (at least not for the check raise sizing you chose).

Also keep in mind the BU always has the option to just check back the flop and realize EV that way. Basically because BU is in position it's not possible to bring any hand that has reasonable equity to 0ev.

Last edited by getmeoffcompletely; 05-23-2017 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 05-23-2017, 07:59 PM   #6
Kitsune101
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Re: SRP check/raise fold vs reraise shove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamway99 View Post
Strong polarised range shoving always "prints money". On the other hand Btn must have calling range under pressure and then on the contrary well constructed BB x/r range had the same advantage.

"With no pure bluffs why is BB folding GTO, shouldnt BB be constructing the range to fold less than GTO"
No deviation from GTO is -EV. Some way it is by definition, we cannot exploit GTO game by calling more/less. You could do it only when you found pio made a mistake with shoving range.
hey, yea my mistake. I really mean MDF here not GTO
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Old 05-23-2017, 08:02 PM   #7
Kitsune101
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Re: SRP check/raise fold vs reraise shove

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
What do you mean by "close to GTO"? Do you mean "close to MDF"?

The BB should call with hands that make money (or at least break even) against the optimal shoving range. In some spots it might mean the BB calls 53%, in others it might be 60% or 45%, and the difference is due to the imbalances in range strength, aka "range advantage". The pot isn't shared out equally with 50% going to one player and 50% to the other.
Yes, I meant MDF.

I understand that BB can only continue against a shove with hands that have enough equity. I am trying to understand why the range is constructed in such a way that it fold MDF against a nut/semibluff shove.
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Old 05-23-2017, 08:04 PM   #8
Kitsune101
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Re: SRP check/raise fold vs reraise shove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebisi View Post
If you're modeling this for PLO purposes, you need to account for the fact the bb's bluff check raising range on this board should consist of hands like QQTx/JJTx/AJTx/AJ8x/KJ75/KQ65/etc. Also if button is using an 80% flop cbet sizing, a lot of the more bareish OESD's will probably be put into his checkback range.
Yea, no way to take that into account in PIOSolver. Just trying looking at it in a theoretical way.
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Old 05-23-2017, 08:07 PM   #9
Kitsune101
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Re: SRP check/raise fold vs reraise shove

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Originally Posted by getmeoffcompletely View Post
No because semibluffs still have equity and button has the option to call facing the check raise.

So if BB were to check raise and call the shove with a wider range, trying to bring down the EV of BU's semibluffs, then BU would just stop shoving OESD and call them instead.

Being in position with a strong draw will always have positive EV. So at optimal play what the BB is doing is making the OESD indifferent between and calling. It can't make it indifferent between calling and folding (at least not for the check raise sizing you chose).

Also keep in mind the BU always has the option to just check back the flop and realize EV that way. Basically because BU is in position it's not possible to bring any hand that has reasonable equity to 0ev.
hey, what happens then if I know BB plays this balance strategy and is going to fold MDF anyway without adjusting to my shoving range? Doesnt that make even weaker draws like GS very profitable?
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