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05-06-2019 , 08:54 AM
Hello I’m wondering how u should play when you make a range advantage but u don’t want to over-rep your hand?

Ex#1. U 3bet QQ and board comes out AKX thus u have the range advantage as the preflop 3bettor but if u bet you’re over-repping your hand.

EX#2. U overcall from the BB with 22 multi-way. Flops K52r goes bet/call and we overcall. Now the turn is the 6. So we have 34 in our range and no one else does (just suppose) so it’s a reasonable card to have a lead range on? But leading would rep a straight when we only have a set.

EX#3. We flat 66 pre for a min-raise from the BB and board comes out 862r and we x/c a cbet. Turn is 5. So it puts some straights in our range and we might want a lead range. But again, we would be repping a straight when we only have a set.

Ex#4. We raise JJ pre and get called by the BB. Flops 822r we cbet and get called. Turn is the K and we decide it’s a good card for our range and want to barrel. But this would rep a king when we only have JJ.

Any thoughts on these spots appreciated
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05-06-2019 , 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by hyperknit
Hello I’m wondering how u should play when you make a range advantage but u don’t want to over-rep your hand?
This may or may not be useful but I tend to ask myself these questions when betting hands that are clear bluffing candidates in the sense that I would prefer the opponent folds or lie hands that lie somewhere in "middle ground" between clear bluffs and clear valuebets:

How much equity am I going to fold out of villain's range? How much is a reasonable price to pay to fold out this equity? Note this includes the amount of hands villain will fold as well as an approximation of the amount of equity each hand/hand type might contain.

How many cards are likely to help my range on the coming streets?

How many cards help villain's range on the coming streets? Is villain likely to take advantage of those cards (i.e. cause me to fold out a lot of equity)?

Does this hand prefer to reach the next street or showdow or end the hand immediately?

Which players range contains a clear advantage now? Which players range is likely to have the advantage on future streets?

What lines have merit given the remaining stack sizes relative to what's in the pot?

The answers to these questions aren't easy but allow for an easier framework to make nuanced decisions in real time instead of saying "my hand is XX the board is WYZ I should bet" type decision making.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperknit
Ex#1. U 3bet QQ and board comes out AKX thus u have the range advantage as the preflop 3bettor but if u bet you’re over-repping your hand.
Positions and opponents matter here but in general, if villains is likely to have and fold weak aces and lots of kings then a bet is clearly better for your hand. I think that's a likely assumption vs a lot of average players. In position might be different than oop as wellsince in position you always can see the next card for free, but oop you're left guessing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperknit
EX#2. U overcall from the BB with 22 multi-way. Flops K52r goes bet/call and we overcall. Now the turn is the 6. So we have 34 in our range and no one else does (just suppose) so it’s a reasonable card to have a lead range on? But leading would rep a straight when we only have a set.
With a set of 2's you don't block the majority of villain's calling range namely Kx so betting here is clearly superior. Sets are just way too high in your range in most situations and with typical stack sizes to not bet for value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperknit
EX#3. We flat 66 pre for a min-raise from the BB and board comes out 862r and we x/c a cbet. Turn is 5. So it puts some straights in our range and we might want a lead range. But again, we would be repping a straight when we only have a set.
Same situation as above. It only gets to be difficult to decide in narrow range spots where you and villain both tend to have quite a few strong hands in your ranges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperknit
Ex#4. We raise JJ pre and get called by the BB. Flops 822r we cbet and get called. Turn is the K and we decide it’s a good card for our range and want to barrel. But this would rep a king when we only have JJ.
Depends on villain's calling range and what type of over card hands he will carry over. If it's saturated with Ax then another bet is good. The more Kx villain is likely to show up with her the worse off you are.

Just generalizing I'd say it should be another bet but again you're in position so you can choose to check and react if you'd like. Not betting you're probably also losing more value to 8x, 77 and other random pairs the blind will have and want to defend here.
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05-07-2019 , 10:26 AM
I’m beginning to think the solution to this problem is to split range into multiple bet sizings...
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05-07-2019 , 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperknit
I’m beginning to think the solution to this problem is to split range into multiple bet sizings...
You can try doing that in some scenarios but it's pretty hard for a human player to do that without leaking information about the contents of their range at a given betsize.
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05-09-2019 , 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by just_grindin
You can try doing that in some scenarios but it's pretty hard for a human player to do that without leaking information about the contents of their range at a given betsize.


Ask me a week ago and I agree with u. But it might not be as hard as we think. Now I’m reading NLHE for advanced players by Janda. Where he argues for split cbet sizing on nearly every flop texture. (Page 112 he gets into it)

Basically what it comes down to is that different sizings cause different MDFs, so big sizing isolates us with a stronger range, while small sizing isolates us with a weaker range. Some hands benefit from being against a wider range (weak top pair, strong 2nd pair etc) while some hands would prefer to be against the tighter range (mainly really strong hands that can go for big value).

Draws tend to not really care what they’re up against, so we can throw some in each sizing range.

Now I heard a few times that BALANCE IS A RESULT OF PLAYING EACH HAND IN A WAY THAT IT MAXIMIZES EV but ive always had my doubts. Anyways super nutted hands like AA on A72 can’t bet big because they lock the board up so they can be put in the small bet range and this nicely balances that out with some nutty hands.
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05-09-2019 , 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperknit
Basically what it comes down to is that different sizings cause different MDFs, so big sizing isolates us with a stronger range, while small sizing isolates us with a weaker range. Some hands benefit from being against a wider range (weak top pair, strong 2nd pair etc) while some hands would prefer to be against the tighter range (mainly really strong hands that can go for big value).

Draws tend to not really care what they’re up against, so we can throw some in each sizing range.
I am not sure how this is counter to my point. I said that it's difficult to do without leaking information.

The next thing I would add is if you leak information you give villain other strategic options with his hands that make more EV than if you hadn't leaked information.

I mean if your "bet small" range is always just top pair at best you're going to have a hard time.

And the hardest part about this is appropriately mixing your draws and made hands with the correct frequency. You could do something like picking a particular suit etc but it's not necessarily that much more EV over a simpler single betsize strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperknit
Now I heard a few times that BALANCE IS A RESULT OF PLAYING EACH HAND IN A WAY THAT IT MAXIMIZES EV but ive always had my doubts.
I have never heard or seen balanced used in that context. Usually it means something closer to "use strong and weak hands in the same betting/raising line". I agree people use it as a way to approximately play whatever they think GTO is.
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