Does the line of raising for value and folding to a reraise exists in any gto strategy?

Anyone have ever seen that line in any solver solution?

It would be pretty weird, imo, if GTO play didn't include raises for thin value that become folds when they get re-raised. It can happen on every street, including pre-flop. (e.g. you 3-bet with 77 or AJs and get 4-bet by a range you're in terrible shape against).

Snowie isn't a pure solver (so Pio et all might have very different strats for this spot), but this example didn't take long to build.



BTN triple barrels for 1/2 pot. BB check-minraises trips on the river (at low frequency) for thin value (to get called by worse Jx and Kx), but when BTN jams, BB should fold.

Agreed. Has to be the case, especially when probabilities of choices are taken into account. For example, you raise/call 95% of the time and raise/fold 5% of the time.

Did read something about it being bad long ago don't remember where, but it is clear to me the spots do exists and more clear now with your examples and explanations.

Thanks guys

Nope, it actually can be a good indicator from a good player vs. a bad player.

If you are at a table of inexperienced players it really doesn't make sense to 4-bet or 5-bet bluff ever because it is going to be difficult for them to get away from their hand since they already invested so much already. Inexperienced players have a hard time getting away from their hands after raising.

Sometimes a newbie will make the mistake to bet something like 3 of a kind on the river with a possible flush out there and call a check/raise all in from a loose passive opponent. Another mistake some newbies make is being afraid their opponent has a better hand and choosing not to bet for value even when it is likely the opponent will call with 2 pair and 1 pair holdings. The experienced player will bet for value hoping to get a call, but know to let it go when faced with the all-in, because the loose passive player never does this without the flush.

Clear, thanks

After each non-checking action, ranges become tighter and thus what used to be a value hand can turn into a bluff catcher or a fold. Arty's example illustrates that nicely.

Equilibrium solutions can be counter-intuitive. Since poker is so complex, we prefer to learn in heuristics. A simple example would be "raise your strong hands and flush draws on the flop".

However, there are plenty of times OTT&R where a solver has 90% of its raises for value (in my eyes) with few bluffs, and vice-versa. The reason for this is asymmetric ranges, particularly on later streets.

"for value" is a fuzzy term and not really that useful on early streets.

For example there are situations where a solver will raise middle or third pair with redraws on the flop vs a cbet. Is that a bluff? Is that value? The answer is it's a bit of everything.

If by "value" you simply mean hands that will frequently get called by worse, then yes, there's plenty of times when it's optimal to raise a "value" hand with the intention of folding to a reraise.

In this specific example, I'm curious what bluffs BTN should use to balance out his value?

Snowie prefers potting the river, but if it half pots and faces a min-check-raise, it only 3-bet bluffs at a very low frequency (with some random ace highs using mixed strats), presumably because BB is heavily weighted towards trips and boats when it makes such a small river raise. i.e. When BB check-raises small, he's not bluffing very often, so BTN can't profitably re-bluff at a high frequency. When ranges are very narrow, balance seems to go out of the window somewhat. I don't know what the other solvers would recommend, but Snowie's river 3-betting range is 99% boats/quads, which is why the BB has to fold trips to the shove.

Happens much less frequently on the river in fixed limit poker. Almost surely you are remembering strategy advice from fixed limit.

It exists all the time on the river.

Pot $100, villain bets $50, I raise to $150, villain re-raises to $500.

When I raise to $150, my opponent will risk $100 to win $300 on his potential call. So I need 75% value and 25% air to be balanced.

When villain re-raises to $500, he's risking $450 to win $300. He's risking more than he stands to win, so I have to fold more than 50% of the time to keep my opponent indifferent to bluffing and I don't have near 50% bluffs in my raising range (which means many a value hands get tossed).