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Old 02-13-2018, 12:36 AM   #1
jglman91
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Quick question about shorthand strategy

Is a GTO button open range the same 3 handed as it is FR?

If not, why?
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:42 AM   #2
just_grindin
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Re: Quick question about shorthand strategy

Yes they should be identical. The only reason I could think of slight variations are due to card bunching effects.

Card bunching is the idea that if the first 6-7 players folded in a full ring game, those players likely didn't have good hands meaning the deck and the remaining player's hands likely have higher remaining cards which means the players hands could be slightly skewed to being better hands.

Overall the effect is minimal.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:47 AM   #3
robert_utk
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Quick question about shorthand strategy

If you mean, as j_g pointed out, that the action folds to you on the button, then your range does not change.

If you mean playing a hand versus only two other opponents dealt, then everything changes including your opening ranges.

As for why, in full ring you have zero incentive to alter and steal blinds at any frequency than you always do.

When playing 3-handed you will get run over and blinded off if you play the same tight ranges you play full ring.
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:56 PM   #4
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Re: Quick question about shorthand strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
If you mean, as j_g pointed out, that the action folds to you on the button, then your range does not change.

If you mean playing a hand versus only two other opponents dealt, then everything changes including your opening ranges.

As for why, in full ring you have zero incentive to alter and steal blinds at any frequency than you always do.

When playing 3-handed you will get run over and blinded off if you play the same tight ranges you play full ring.
Rob in case you didn't know I believe open implies that no other player has taken any action in the hand prior to you, which includes calling.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:16 PM   #5
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Re: Quick question about shorthand strategy

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Originally Posted by just_grindin View Post
Rob in case you didn't know I believe open implies that no other player has taken any action in the hand prior to you, which includes calling.


Yes but the word “open” does not clarify if the OP meant full ring or three-handed poker.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:31 PM   #6
felixxx1021
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Re: Quick question about shorthand strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by just_grindin View Post
Yes they should be identical. The only reason I could think of slight variations are due to card bunching effects.

Card bunching is the idea that if the first 6-7 players folded in a full ring game, those players likely didn't have good hands meaning the deck and the remaining player's hands likely have higher remaining cards which means the players hands could be slightly skewed to being better hands.

Overall the effect is minimal.
+1
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:40 PM   #7
robert_utk
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Quick question about shorthand strategy

Ok now Ima confuzed.

Are we saying that when only 3 players are dealt cards, that the button opens the same percentage as he would steal in full ring?

Should be wider range in 3-handed poker no?
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:58 PM   #8
just_grindin
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Re: Quick question about shorthand strategy

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Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
Ok now Ima confuzed.

Are we saying that when only 3 players are dealt cards, that the button opens the same percentage as he would steal in full ring?

Should be wider range in 3-handed poker no?
No. Think about it this way does a hand become more or less profitable based on the number of people not in the hand?

Now overall your raise from the button will be lower in full ring because players in front of you will take actions that will prevent you from opening.

But if it's folded to you on the button in full ring the same cards should be as profitable as if the game was only 3 handed and you were first to act on the button. The card bunching effects are minimal, especially over finite hand samples.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:19 PM   #9
robert_utk
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Re: Quick question about shorthand strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by just_grindin View Post
No. Think about it this way does a hand become more or less profitable based on the number of people not in the hand?

Now overall your raise from the button will be lower in full ring because players in front of you will take actions that will prevent you from opening.

But if it's folded to you on the button in full ring the same cards should be as profitable as if the game was only 3 handed and you were first to act on the button. The card bunching effects are minimal, especially over finite hand samples.


Ahh, makes sense. My poker brain is a little cluttered.

Thanks just_grindin
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:53 AM   #10
getmeoffcompletely
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Re: Quick question about shorthand strategy

No it's not the same. The FR range will be tighter due to card removal effects. If it folds to you on the button in a FR game and you look down at 32s there is a much higher probability that the blinds have high card hands, especially A high. The EV of low card hands will be higher in the 3 handed game because there aren't 6 other players folding out the trash cards from the deck. So 3 handed you will be able to open a wider range.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:41 PM   #11
just_grindin
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Re: Quick question about shorthand strategy

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Originally Posted by getmeoffcompletely View Post
No it's not the same. The FR range will be tighter due to card removal effects. If it folds to you on the button in a FR game and you look down at 32s there is a much higher probability that the blinds have high card hands, especially A high. The EV of low card hands will be higher in the 3 handed game because there aren't 6 other players folding out the trash cards from the deck. So 3 handed you will be able to open a wider range.
I mentioned card bunching and the effects are minimal to the overall EV of the hand. The players in the blinds will make a bigger difference than the minor card bunching effects. Even statistical variance/noise will have more of an effect in your finite sample of hands.

I think a poster here created a thread or responded in a thread and did some analysis in excel using "reverse ranges" and found it was equivalent to like 1 extra out for A/K when compared to a 2 over the course of the entire hand. Not sure how he measured it to arrive at "about 1 out" but I seems to remember that being the number.
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Old 02-23-2018, 06:00 PM   #12
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Re: Quick question about shorthand strategy

You are supposed to open slightly more hands on the button (about 2% more) when it is 3 handed as opposed to when it is 6 handed and it folds to you on the button.

Reason could card bunching. Could be something else.

I used to think you are supposed to play crazy because the game is 3 handed. That's not true.

The only meaningful difference in a 3 handed game and a 6 handed game is it folds to you in the SB more often as a total % of hands dealt.

So your SB game in an unopened pot better be on point if you want to play 3 handed cash games. In 6 max and specially FR games, you can get away with not playing that spot well since it doesn't occur often. I
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