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Old 07-20-2021, 11:27 AM   #1
dude45
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question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

why is the solver so happy to have a UP with a diamond and heart. I get having those 2 suits unblocks villain having a BDFD with clubs but so does having a spade and solver could care less about a spade. The heart also unblocks BDFDs. The spade does all that aswell so i guess the real question is why does solver not care about the spade. Also why does solver only bet UPs with the exact combo of diamond/heart

SBs overall river strat

GTO under pair on river by , on Flickr

SBs strat with pocket 99s the only UP that sees the river when the previous streets go check check

river 99 by s, on Flickr
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Old 07-20-2021, 02:07 PM   #2
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

Can't say much without seeing the ranges and previous streets' strategies, but analyzing this at what I perceive to be your current level of play is mostly a waste of time.
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Old 07-20-2021, 02:21 PM   #3
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

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Originally Posted by Brokenstars View Post
Can't say much without seeing the ranges and previous streets' strategies, but analyzing this at what I perceive to be your current level of play is mostly a waste of time.
Well I know the exact hand is irrelevant. Just wondering why solver likes that exact suit so much. I'll post previous street later not at pc right now
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Old 07-20-2021, 03:58 PM   #4
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

Dude45, the ranges are so tight this is gonna come down to blocking/unblocking one fractional combo in villain's river range. You can see it has slightly more equity than the other 99. Since we don't know villains river range we can't give you a real answer.

Don't read too much into this or make sweeping generalizations. Remember that solvers are chaos theory - the slightest change to initial conditions can result in drastically different strategies by the river. This is especially true when you're starting with very tight ranges.
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Old 07-20-2021, 05:11 PM   #5
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

another more general question when solving with zenith ranges is it better to just use the all ranges tab. especially for villain?
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Old 07-20-2021, 05:30 PM   #6
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

ok set up BB versus BU in 4bet pot the ranges. i want to see how i should play from the SB facing a BTN 4bet are very tight because i used exact ranges for the particular bet size. not sure if thats the best way to do things though ?

oop range

oop preflop call 4bet by , on Flickr

IP range
BTN 4bet range by , on Flickr

using zenith ranges BB doesnt actually do a lot of calling or raising mainly folding so its calling range is pretty tight

oops over all river strat
oops river strat by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/190463150@N08/]/url], on Flickr

ip if oop checks
ip strat if oop checks by , on Flickr

ip if oop bets
ip is oop bets by steve jenkins, on Flickr

Last edited by dude45; 07-20-2021 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 07-20-2021, 05:57 PM   #7
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

by the way all combos of 9s are a check fold on turn. The river being a heart really changes things though. IF we change the river to a 6 of spades oop is beting all combos of 9s at some frequency. anyway a fiddled around with different river suits and its only when the river is a heart that the effects are so dramatic. any other card and multiple combos of 9s are mixed

Last edited by dude45; 07-20-2021 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 07-20-2021, 08:23 PM   #8
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

Look at villain's A9o and 96s. That's the only blocker interaction. Tally the number of (fractional) combos you block with each 9-suit (9s, 9d, 9h, 9c). This requires microscopic analysis.

Now ask yourself if you want to block or unblock these hands. Ask yourself how their calling/folding ranges change based on the direct blocker interactions.
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Old 07-20-2021, 08:55 PM   #9
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

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Originally Posted by tombos21 View Post
Look at villain's A9o and 96s. That's the only blocker interaction. Tally the number of (fractional) combos you block with each 9-suit (9s, 9d, 9h, 9c). This requires microscopic analysis.

Now ask yourself if you want to block or unblock these hands. Ask yourself how their calling/folding ranges change based on the direct blocker interactions.
Will do when I get back on pc
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Old 07-21-2021, 05:29 AM   #10
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

Why are you only allowed to bet pot on the last street? We're not playing pot limit holdem. My advice is first make sure you're running correct sims before you get into the weeds of individual suit combos.
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Old 07-21-2021, 10:11 AM   #11
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

Understanding good/bad blockers unblockers in different spots is a beneficial exercise but 4bps probably aren't the best spot to drill down into the minutae of the output.

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Old 07-21-2021, 06:34 PM   #12
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

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Why are you only allowed to bet pot on the last street? We're not playing pot limit holdem. My advice is first make sure you're running correct sims before you get into the weeds of individual suit combos.
Are you talking about for IP? Because oop can check or bet 25%/50%/100%

Also IP should have the option to bet 50% or 100% as thats how the tree is set up or maybe i accidently erased the 50% option i limit betting options because i only have 16 megs of ram and in a lot of spots if i try to do even 2 sizing's for every street my PC is like no thankyou. Particularly if some of those sizing's are 25% or less on the flop

Last edited by dude45; 07-21-2021 at 06:54 PM. Reason: add content
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Old 07-21-2021, 06:49 PM   #13
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

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Originally Posted by tombos21 View Post
Look at villain's A9o and 96s. That's the only blocker interaction. Tally the number of (fractional) combos you block with each 9-suit (9s, 9d, 9h, 9c). This requires microscopic analysis.

Now ask yourself if you want to block or unblock these hands. Ask yourself how their calling/folding ranges change based on the direct blocker interactions.
well if BB bets the river it has to bet 100% pot as solver only allows checks or betting 1x pot. All other sizing's are a zero frequency. Against a pot bet BTN is obliged to fold all 96 and A9 except AD9H which is allowed to call .30% of the time. So pocket 9s block a chunk of BTNs folding range. Actually if 9s bet the only worse hand thats calling is AJ at a low frequency.

Some better hands do fold though so betting 9s is 100% a bluff i think . I'll take a deeper dive in a bit

Brain fart AJ beats us as the turn is a check so literally no worse hand calls. So isnt the question what combo of suits allows button to have more better hands that fold? Not sure this is hard.

The a9 combo actually 3bets .30%

Last edited by dude45; 07-21-2021 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 07-21-2021, 07:53 PM   #14
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

Quote:
Understanding good/bad blockers unblockers in different spots is a beneficial exercise but 4bps probably aren't the best spot to drill down into the minutae of the output.
The reason why ppl don't like answering these kinds of questions is because the answer is complicated, and the utility of the answer is worthless. However I agree that there's value to trying to understand the underlying logic.

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well if BB bets the river it has to bet 100% pot as solver only allows checks or betting 1x pot. All other sizing's are a zero frequency. Against a pot bet BTN is obliged to fold all 96 and A9 except AD9H which is allowed to call .30% of the time. So pocket 9s block a chunk of BTNs folding range. Actually if 9s bet the only worse hand thats calling is AJ at a low frequency.

Some better hands do fold though so betting 9s is 100% a bluff i think . I'll take a deeper dive in a bit

Brain fart AJ beats us as the turn is a check so literally no worse hand calls. So isnt the question what combo of suits allows button to have more better hands that fold? Not sure this is hard.

The a9 combo actually 3bets .30%
99 is clearly betting as a pure bluff (it has 10% equity before it even bets). You had asked WHY it prefers betting this suit over that suit of 99. The answer to that question lies in understanding the blocker interactions of each combination of 99, in relation to villain's 9x.

So my advice is to tally how many of villains A90/96s you block/unblock with each hand. Now ask yourself,

1) Is it better to block or unblock these hands?
2) How does villain's calling/folding/raising% change with this card removal effect, for each combination of 99?
3) How likely is villain to bluff you off your miniscule 10% equity with a worse hand, given the card removal of each 99?

Last edited by tombos21; 07-21-2021 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 07-21-2021, 08:23 PM   #15
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

understanding the logic is what im trying to do
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Old 07-21-2021, 08:25 PM   #16
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Re: question about UPs on river in 4bet pot

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Originally Posted by tombos21 View Post
The reason why ppl don't like answering these kinds of questions is because the answer is complicated, and the utility of the answer is worthless. However I agree that there's value to trying to understand the underlying logic.



99 is clearly betting as a pure bluff (it has 10% equity before it even bets). You had asked WHY it prefers betting this suit over that suit of 99. The answer to that question lies in understanding the blocker interactions of each combination of 99, in relation to villain's 9x.

So my advice is to tally how many of villains A90/96s you block/unblock with each hand. Now ask yourself,

1) Is it better to block or unblock these hands?
2) How does villain's calling/folding/raising% change with this card removal effect, for each combination of 99?
3) How likely is villain to bluff you off your miniscule 10% equity with a worse hand, given the card removal of each 99?
I would assume we want to unblock hands that villain is supposed to fold when we're bluffing. Pokers hard but that atleast seems pretty str8 forward
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