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01-10-2019, 06:28 PM   #1926
disident
journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 236
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Zuko as far as i know that is not true. snowie has played against many different strategies and gives advise due to his expierence. Snowie does not try to counter it´s own strategy. so there spots where snowie advise you to fold even so you would have the odds to call vs snowie´s range...sometimes it wants you to call a river bet even though you loose pretty much against snowie´s entire range
They say it played trillions of hands against itself...u r speaking about spots not played optimally like when u put in analysis of a hand u played online.You will see insane moves if u do that.

01-10-2019, 06:40 PM   #1927
Zuko
journeyman

Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 305
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by disident u r speaking about spots not played optimally like when u put in analysis of a hand u played online.You will see insane moves if u do that.
tbh i dont understand what you mean...

Quote from pokersnowie website

Quote:
 PokerSnowie seems to show inconsistent hand ranges – why is that? In some situations there may be an inconsistency between PokerSnowie's advice and the opponent's hand range. For example, PokerSnowie advises to call a bet on the river, while the opponent's hand range doesn't offer the right odds to call. How can there be such an inconsistency? First of all it has to be noted, that the evaluation (the move advice) is NOT based on the hand range of the opponent. The evaluation is the output of a neural network and has evolved during training. The neural network has been trained over trillions of hands, against various counter-strategies. Therefore these evaluations are very robust and can be trusted most. The hand range, however, is a calculation based on the evaluations of the same neural network. All legal hole cards are considered and the evaluations are used to decide which hole cards PokerSnowie would possibly hold in a certain situation. As a consequence, the evaluation may be different than a conclusion based on the hand range of the opponent. This, unfortunately, cannot be avoided; the problem would only vanish if the neural net was a perfect calculation of the game (and not an estimation based on pattern recognition). The hand range can be very sensitive to small changes in a previous round. Two very similar situations on the flop may lead to quite different hand ranges on the river, if a group of hands falls out of the range due to a small EV difference on the flop. Similarly, two slightly different neural nets that play almost identically may have significantly different hand ranges. Therefore: the right action cannot be concluded from the opponent's hand range the evaluations are robust whereas the hand range is sensitive the hand range should only be used as an indication of which hands are possible holdings

01-10-2019, 07:30 PM   #1928
disident
journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 236
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Zuko tbh i dont understand what you mean... Quote from pokersnowie website
It is what I said...It plays against it's own ranges(neural network solutions over trillions of trials) NOT against opponent's range.Snowbot started to learn the game randomly.By countering strategies it means his own moves bot vs bot.When u sit in a training mode in a 6 max u sit against 5 Snowie bots.So u play against 5 of the best players in the world.If u leave 5 bots will play against each other and eventually they will reach a point when they can't exploit each other.If there was not a rake factor probably Snowie could solve the game somewhere in time in a zero sum environment.

01-10-2019, 07:34 PM   #1929
Zuko
journeyman

Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 305
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by disident .u r speaking about spots not played optimally like when u put in analysis of a hand u played online.You will see insane moves if u do that.
so here you are referring to the scenario builder?

01-10-2019, 07:38 PM   #1930
disident
journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 236
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Zuko so here you are referring to the scenario builder?
No ,when u import hands from HM2 or PT4 database. I say that the best way to learn with Snowie is to use scenarios and training mode.And it is easier if you have full subscription. Otherwise u will be in the dark.

01-10-2019, 07:44 PM   #1931
Zuko
journeyman

Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 305
Re: Pokersnowie question

honestly, i have never imported hands to snowie so i dont know how that is... i always use scenario or training. but that part

Quote:
 Therefore: the right action cannot be concluded from the opponent's hand range the evaluations are robust whereas the hand range is sensitive the hand range should only be used as an indication of which hands are possible holdings
applies to the scenario builder.

01-10-2019, 07:50 PM   #1932
disident
journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 236
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Zuko honestly, i have never imported hands to snowie so i dont know how that is... i always use scenario or training. but that part applies to the scenario builder.
I think it's about training mode but never mind.When i learn through scenarios i learn without particular combos choosing. I pick only board cards and analyse Snowie moves range vs range.

 01-10-2019, 08:02 PM #1933 Zuko journeyman   Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 305 Re: Pokersnowie question no it does apply to scenario builder. thats mostly what i use
01-11-2019, 07:20 AM   #1934
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 11,012
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by aggie the ranges all make sense but i don't understand how he can be bluffing 35% but i'm only calling with my top 5.76%. Am i missing something?
No, you're not missing anything. Snowie has lots of quirks like that, and I think it's because of the way that the artificial neural networks learned the game. Snowie sometimes produces "weird" results, particularly in multiway pots where it hasn't 'experienced' the spot enough times to get anywhere close to a true equilibrium.

As Zuko pointed out, it will sometimes say to call with XX hand (because Snowie thinks it at least breaks even), even though it would lose 100% of the time vs Snowie's own (unbalanced) strategy. The opposite is also true. I used to play pots with it where it would fold 99.4% of its range, even though it would bluff in the same situation if the roles were reversed.

A bit like humans, Snowie's much better at playing on the early streets, due to having more experience of those.

 01-11-2019, 07:51 AM #1935 disident journeyman   Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 236 Re: Pokersnowie question The trick is in the hand strength button...i have checked and 99 there is considered weak with 0.52 showdown strenght which means it has 26% equity against opponent's range(Snowie formula is dividing 0.52 by 2 to get equity number).Betting strength is different because is matched against opponent's non folding range.
 01-11-2019, 01:39 PM #1936 aggie veteran     Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,252 Re: Pokersnowie question Thanks. pretty interesting how this thing works. Seems relatively easy to figure out what is going on preflop. It's much more difficult to figure out what the hell snowie is thinking on later streets. i wonder if it over defends in certain spots to counter balance the spots it is under defending.
 01-12-2019, 07:46 AM #1937 ToiletBowler adept     Join Date: May 2016 Location: My PG&C Posts: 978 Re: Pokersnowie question Hi, has anyone used the freeze out training option in pokersnowie? How good are the suggestions made by it? As I understand, it's restricted because it only chooses one size so it can't properly evaluate a strategy that plays push/fold with some hands, and min raises with others.

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