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Old 01-10-2019, 06:28 PM   #1926
disident
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Zuko View Post
as far as i know that is not true. snowie has played against many different strategies and gives advise due to his expierence. Snowie does not try to counter it´s own strategy. so there spots where snowie advise you to fold even so you would have the odds to call vs snowie´s range...sometimes it wants you to call a river bet even though you loose pretty much against snowie´s entire range
They say it played trillions of hands against itself...u r speaking about spots not played optimally like when u put in analysis of a hand u played online.You will see insane moves if u do that.
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Old 01-10-2019, 06:40 PM   #1927
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by disident View Post
u r speaking about spots not played optimally like when u put in analysis of a hand u played online.You will see insane moves if u do that.
tbh i dont understand what you mean...

Quote from pokersnowie website

Quote:
PokerSnowie seems to show inconsistent hand ranges – why is that?
In some situations there may be an inconsistency between PokerSnowie's advice and the opponent's hand range. For example, PokerSnowie advises to call a bet on the river, while the opponent's hand range doesn't offer the right odds to call. How can there be such an inconsistency?

First of all it has to be noted, that the evaluation (the move advice) is NOT based on the hand range of the opponent. The evaluation is the output of a neural network and has evolved during training. The neural network has been trained over trillions of hands, against various counter-strategies. Therefore these evaluations are very robust and can be trusted most.

The hand range, however, is a calculation based on the evaluations of the same neural network. All legal hole cards are considered and the evaluations are used to decide which hole cards PokerSnowie would possibly hold in a certain situation.

As a consequence, the evaluation may be different than a conclusion based on the hand range of the opponent.

This, unfortunately, cannot be avoided; the problem would only vanish if the neural net was a perfect calculation of the game (and not an estimation based on pattern recognition).

The hand range can be very sensitive to small changes in a previous round. Two very similar situations on the flop may lead to quite different hand ranges on the river, if a group of hands falls out of the range due to a small EV difference on the flop. Similarly, two slightly different neural nets that play almost identically may have significantly different hand ranges.

Therefore:

the right action cannot be concluded from the opponent's hand range
the evaluations are robust whereas the hand range is sensitive
the hand range should only be used as an indication of which hands are possible holdings
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:30 PM   #1928
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Zuko View Post
tbh i dont understand what you mean...



Quote from pokersnowie website
It is what I said...It plays against it's own ranges(neural network solutions over trillions of trials) NOT against opponent's range.Snowbot started to learn the game randomly.By countering strategies it means his own moves bot vs bot.When u sit in a training mode in a 6 max u sit against 5 Snowie bots.So u play against 5 of the best players in the world.If u leave 5 bots will play against each other and eventually they will reach a point when they can't exploit each other.If there was not a rake factor probably Snowie could solve the game somewhere in time in a zero sum environment.
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:34 PM   #1929
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by disident View Post
.u r speaking about spots not played optimally like when u put in analysis of a hand u played online.You will see insane moves if u do that.
so here you are referring to the scenario builder?
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:38 PM   #1930
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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so here you are referring to the scenario builder?
No ,when u import hands from HM2 or PT4 database. I say that the best way to learn with Snowie is to use scenarios and training mode.And it is easier if you have full subscription. Otherwise u will be in the dark.
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:44 PM   #1931
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Re: Pokersnowie question

honestly, i have never imported hands to snowie so i dont know how that is... i always use scenario or training. but that part

Quote:
Therefore:

the right action cannot be concluded from the opponent's hand range
the evaluations are robust whereas the hand range is sensitive
the hand range should only be used as an indication of which hands are possible holdings
applies to the scenario builder.
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:50 PM   #1932
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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honestly, i have never imported hands to snowie so i dont know how that is... i always use scenario or training. but that part







applies to the scenario builder.
I think it's about training mode but never mind.When i learn through scenarios i learn without particular combos choosing. I pick only board cards and analyse Snowie moves range vs range.
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:02 PM   #1933
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Re: Pokersnowie question

no it does apply to scenario builder. thats mostly what i use
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:20 AM   #1934
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by aggie View Post
the ranges all make sense but i don't understand how he can be bluffing 35% but i'm only calling with my top 5.76%. Am i missing something?
No, you're not missing anything. Snowie has lots of quirks like that, and I think it's because of the way that the artificial neural networks learned the game. Snowie sometimes produces "weird" results, particularly in multiway pots where it hasn't 'experienced' the spot enough times to get anywhere close to a true equilibrium.

As Zuko pointed out, it will sometimes say to call with XX hand (because Snowie thinks it at least breaks even), even though it would lose 100% of the time vs Snowie's own (unbalanced) strategy. The opposite is also true. I used to play pots with it where it would fold 99.4% of its range, even though it would bluff in the same situation if the roles were reversed.

A bit like humans, Snowie's much better at playing on the early streets, due to having more experience of those.
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:51 AM   #1935
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Re: Pokersnowie question

The trick is in the hand strength button...i have checked and 99 there is considered weak with 0.52 showdown strenght which means it has 26% equity against opponent's range(Snowie formula is dividing 0.52 by 2 to get equity number).Betting strength is different because is matched against opponent's non folding range.
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:39 PM   #1936
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Thanks. pretty interesting how this thing works. Seems relatively easy to figure out what is going on preflop. It's much more difficult to figure out what the hell snowie is thinking on later streets.

i wonder if it over defends in certain spots to counter balance the spots it is under defending.
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Old 01-12-2019, 07:46 AM   #1937
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Hi, has anyone used the freeze out training option in pokersnowie? How good are the suggestions made by it? As I understand, it's restricted because it only chooses one size so it can't properly evaluate a strategy that plays push/fold with some hands, and min raises with others.
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Old 02-05-2019, 02:40 PM   #1938
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I found out that Snowie is folding 55% against 3x open hu. Isn't this exploitable? I mean, if we are defending less than half the time, then villain should raise with any two cards simply because he is making money immediately.

What do you think?
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Old 02-05-2019, 02:45 PM   #1939
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Jerman View Post
I found out that Snowie is folding 55% against 3x open hu. Isn't this exploitable? I mean, if we are defending less than half the time, then villain should raise with any two cards simply because he is making money immediately.

What do you think?
Did anyone say that snowie isn't exploitable?
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Old 02-05-2019, 02:58 PM   #1940
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Did anyone say that snowie isn't exploitable?
It has been said that it plays near optimal or near perfect strategy. Furthermore, preflop is the most simplest street in poker to solve, and therefore Snowie should be accurate atleast on that street, or otherwise it is not delivering much to it's users.
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:18 PM   #1941
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Jerman View Post
It has been said that it plays near optimal or near perfect strategy. Furthermore, preflop is the most simplest street in poker to solve, and therefore Snowie should be accurate atleast on that street, or otherwise it is not delivering much to it's users.
Snowie was never very accurate. If you play like it, you probably won't make money even in micros.
It's hard to prove that something isn't a "near perfect strategy", that's why the company can get away with such claims.

I don't know why you think that preflop is the simplest street to solve though. It's the hardest one in my opinion.
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:31 PM   #1942
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by ZKesic View Post
Snowie was never very accurate. If you play like it, you probably won't make money even in micros.
It's hard to prove that something isn't a "near perfect strategy", that's why the company can get away with such claims.

I don't know why you think that preflop is the simplest street to solve though. It's the hardest one in my opinion.
Because preflop can be solved more easily by running billions of simulations. It is the street that is played most often in poker, that is why it is the most easy one to solve with this "trial and error" -approach. On the other hand, turn is played little less often and there is more ranges and betsizes to be taken into account, so it is more complicated to solve compared to preflop.

Even high stakes players have leaks in their strategies but you can be pretty sure that their strategy on preflop play is the one that is most closest to optimal.

Last edited by Jerman; 02-05-2019 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:37 PM   #1943
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by ZKesic View Post
Snowie was never very accurate. If you play like it, you probably won't make money even in micros.
It's hard to prove that something isn't a "near perfect strategy", that's why the company can get away with such claims.

I don't know why you think that preflop is the simplest street to solve though. It's the hardest one in my opinion.
It's non sense to say that Snowie can't beat anyone.I bet noone human can beat Snowie HU 500 k hands with same Libratus pre game rules.
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:41 PM   #1944
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Jerman View Post
Because preflop can be solved more easily by running billions of simulations. It is the street that is played most often in poker, that is why it is the most easy one to solve with this "trial and error" -approach. On the other hand, turn is played little less often and there is more ranges and betsizes to be taken into account, so it is more complicated to solve compared to preflop.

Even high stakes players have leaks in their strategies but you can be pretty sure that their strategy on preflop play is the one that is most closest to optimal.
It depends on how the streets are solved. If they are solved mathematically, the river is the simplest. If it's by running billions of simulations (like snowie), I guess the preflop should be the simplest one, so you're probably right.
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:44 PM   #1945
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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It's non sense to say that Snowie can't beat anyone.I bet noone human can beat Snowie HU 500 k hands with same Libratus pre game rules.
I don't really play HU, but since snowie is folding 50%+ vs a 3x open, I don't think it should be too hard to beat it.

If it's making such big mistakes on the simplest street, one can assume that it isn't really playing much better postflop.
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:47 PM   #1946
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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I don't really play HU, but since snowie is folding 50%+ vs 3x open I don't think it should be too hard to beat it.
What r Snowie's frequencies it depends on levels u r playing.It considers rake.
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:52 PM   #1947
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by disident View Post
What r Snowie's frequencies it depends on levels u r playing.It considers rake.
If BB is folding 50%+ vs a 3x open, SB should always be opening 100% of hands (no matter the rake).
I doubt that's the case for snowie though. I don't use it anymore, but you can check.

I've used it in 6-max and can tell you that a lot of its plays don't make much sense and some of them are absolutely terrible.
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:55 PM   #1948
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Re: Pokersnowie question

To nickname disident:

This is true. However, even with rake considerations taken into account, I think we should not fold 55% preflop against 3x.
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:58 PM   #1949
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Jerman View Post
I found out that Snowie is folding 55% against 3x open hu. Isn't this exploitable? I mean, if we are defending less than half the time, then villain should raise with any two cards simply because he is making money immediately.
What do you think?
I don't know as I've never studied HU games in depth. What frequencies are the best heads up players in the world currently using?
Last I heard, the 2.5x open had become standard, and there was also a vogue for limping, but the game is always changing, so I don't know how often people defend vs a 3x open. My gut feeling is that it's probably impossible to profitably defend more than 50% OOP vs a tough opponent at low stakes (with high rake), but I'm really not sure.
In the past it was said that Snowie was stronger heads up in comparison to 6-max, and hardly anyone could beat it HU. (Even a primitive version of the AI beat Jungleman - over a tiny sample size - when he was arguably the best in the world).
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Old 02-05-2019, 04:08 PM   #1950
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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I don't know as I've never studied HU games in depth. What frequencies are the best heads up players in the world currently using?
Last I heard, the 2.5x open had become standard, and there was also a vogue for limping, but the game is always changing, so I don't know how often people defend vs a 3x open. My gut feeling is that it's probably impossible to profitably defend more than 50% OOP vs a tough opponent at low stakes (with high rake), but I'm really not sure.
In the past it was said that Snowie was stronger heads up in comparison to 6-max, and hardly anyone could beat it HU. (Even a primitive version of the AI beat Jungleman - over a tiny sample size - when he was arguably the best in the world).
Regs usually fold around 30-35% vs a 3x open.
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