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Old 12-23-2018, 07:15 PM   #1901
CupidStunt0
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I've been using the PokerSnowie training for 6 max cash games and found some queries with the way PokerSnowie suggests that you play.

PokerSnowie suggests raising 0.5 pot from EP raises with most hands rather than a standard raise to 3BB but often suggests raising to pot from the button has the game flipped around in the last few years where this is now the standard?

PokerSnowie suggests that it's wrong to set mine vs EP raises with low pocket pairs but tells you that you should vs CO raises. I thought this was backwards?

I'm guessing the reason that it doesn't tell you to set mine vs EP raises is because you're playing against optimal villains who wont pay you off making it -EV against these villains where it would be +EV against most non GTO villains?

On the button with AKo against an EP raise, PokerSnowie suggests calling rather than 3 betting.

PokerSnowie suggests calling KJo from the SB against a MP raise.

PokerSnowie often suggests that you don't defend lower top pair and lower overpair hands, or higher top pair hands on dangerous boards with a lot of draws, suggesting instead to check and let your opponent get a free card, eg:

Hero raises UTG with 77, folds round to BB who calls, flop comes 5, 6, 8 rainbow. Villain checks, hero bets half pot. Pokersnowie says bet was wrong, hero should have checked.

Hero raises from BTN with 9To, SB folds, BB calls, flop comes 5, 6, 9 rainbow. Villain checks, hero bets half pot. Pokersnowie says bet was wrong, hero should have checked. I would have thought this was asking for trouble?
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Old 12-23-2018, 07:55 PM   #1902
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
Originally Posted by CupidStunt0 View Post
has the game flipped around in the last few years where this is now the standard?
well we have learned a lot about the game, so yes, it has changed a lot.
snowie raises 0.5 pot from EP because it doesnt want to Play big pots oop. Snowie opens pot on the button because it wants to avoid paying rake on lower Limits (snowie accounts for rake) so it prefers a higher fold equity and you have obviously Position always.

in 2018 many Players know that they can raise very frequently on low connected and wet Flops. so snowie thinks betting with a Hand that has a lot of SDV but does not want to Play against a reraise is asking for Trouble. also a lot of These Flops hit Villains range much harder these days because flatting ranges are much more narrow and strong than they used to be.
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Old 12-23-2018, 07:56 PM   #1903
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Frogman3 View Post
Is it me or have pokersnowie reduced the scenarios allowed ? I have intermediate and its 1200 ? I thought it used to be 3000 or am I imagining that
i have 3000 with pro so... seems to be right
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Old 12-24-2018, 03:20 PM   #1904
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by CupidStunt0 View Post
PokerSnowie suggests raising 0.5 pot from EP raises with most hands rather than a standard raise to 3BB but often suggests raising to pot from the button has the game flipped around in the last few years where this is now the standard?
This question has come up several times in this thread. It only goes with the larger size on the button in high rake environments (microstakes), figuring that its range maximizes EV from stealing the blinds at a high frequency, and being in position if there's a call that makes the pot larger. It opens smaller UTG-CO because there's a decent chance it will face a 3-bet, and a decent chance it will have to play OOP post-flop. Since you lose more pots when you're OOP (especially if you face a 3-bet), you'd prefer to keep those pots small to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CupidStunt0 View Post
PokerSnowie suggests that it's wrong to set mine vs EP raises with low pocket pairs but tells you that you should vs CO raises. I thought this was backwards?
In the old days we were taught to set-mine against nits because there were greater implied odds. You could flop a set and win a stack vs TPTK or an overpair. Indeed, top pair used to be played as a bet-bet-shove.
In modern poker, the average potsize is smaller, and stack off ranges much tighter. "GTO"-ish poker includes much more checking with hands like top pair. One pair is just not worth 100bb, so if you get all in on A96 with 66 vs an UTG Snowie-style player, it will always have AA or 99.
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Originally Posted by CupidStunt0 View Post
PokerSnowie often suggests that you don't defend lower top pair and lower overpair hands, or higher top pair hands on dangerous boards with a lot of draws, suggesting instead to check and let your opponent get a free card
This is partly due to the risk of getting raised, and ties in with an old cliché that has become more and more true as time goes on: Big hand big pot, small hand small pot.
Snowie doesn't want to play for stacks with one pair, including pr+draw. If it has some showdown value, Snowie is much more passive than used to be common. Realizing your own equity by checking back (and possibly inducing bluffs) is often more important than denying your opponent's equity by betting "for protection".
Every spot is different though. The general thrust, however, is that you only want to play big pots with very big hands. Top pair no kicker, or overpair on a connected flop, is not a big hand, so it's often checked back.
If you play a few hundred hands vs the bots and then look at their stats afterwards, pay attention to Snowie's WTSD number. While in the micros you might only get to showdown 25% of the time (because there's a lot of c-betting and fit-or-fold play), the Snowbots have a WTSD number of well over 30. It realizes its equity by checking a lot. You could think of it as a defensive strategy, as it's basically saying "If you flopped a straight, you're not gonna stack me, because I'm taking a street off."
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Old 12-24-2018, 06:34 PM   #1905
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Lately Snowie is using pot size opens for Micros up to NL20 from every position except HJ.It suggests that we take full advantage of "no flop no drop" policy in high rake environment.
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Old 12-25-2018, 04:17 PM   #1906
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Oh, I didn't know that. Can you play against it in a simulated 10NL environment? It must have really nitty tendencies (like folding 88 and some Axs UTG??) if it's using pot-sized opens in every position.
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Old 12-26-2018, 12:33 AM   #1907
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
Oh, I didn't know that. Can you play against it in a simulated 10NL environment? It must have really nitty tendencies (like folding 88 and some Axs UTG??) if it's using pot-sized opens in every position.
I've building a full tree through scenarios(The lowest simulation is NL20) with no particular combos selected so when u open preflop advice for LowJack it suggest pot size open.I am not home at the moment to be sure 100% but I think that 99 is mix 64%(open/fold).About AXs I will tell u later but probably is opening all of them(maybe A2s is a fold).For NL10 particulary we can build a tree through hand histories.
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Old 12-26-2018, 09:16 AM   #1908
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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I've building a full tree through scenarios(The lowest simulation is NL20) with no particular combos selected so when u open preflop advice for LowJack it suggest pot size open.I am not home at the moment to be sure 100% but I think that 99 is mix 64%(open/fold).About AXs I will tell u later but probably is opening all of them(maybe A2s is a fold).For NL10 particulary we can build a tree through hand histories.
Yeah,99(64),ATo(42)+;KJo(64)+;A3s(90)+;K9s(44)+;QT s+;J9s(4)+...That's LowJack x 1pot opening range .
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Old 12-30-2018, 07:50 PM   #1909
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Hi, someone has used successfully Snowie for the creation of ranges preflop in MTT? I find it curious to see the differences that exist with different effective stack in the ranges. Of course, if ranges of snowie also depending on not only the effective stack and stack the entire table and ours, I think that it would be impossible to reach conclusions more concrete. Thank you
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Old 12-30-2018, 08:44 PM   #1910
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Musashiden View Post
Hi, someone has used successfully Snowie for the creation of ranges preflop in MTT? I find it curious to see the differences that exist with different effective stack in the ranges. Of course, if ranges of snowie also depending on not only the effective stack and stack the entire table and ours, I think that it would be impossible to reach conclusions more concrete. Thank you
U can do it using highest level of cash game simulation(where rake is not significant for creating ranges) with antes.I have some creations but they are not complete. At first look I can say that this ranges are tighter(also not taking into account ICM or whatever other model u use for tournament play especially for spots like bubble,in the money payouts, final table etc.) and other important thing is that Snowie prefer different(cash game) style even 10 or 15 bb deep. For example, Snowie never goes All in preflop even 10bb.It still will use min raise or limp and play small ball on the flop.Snowie style is closer to FGS than ICM I think.
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Old 12-30-2018, 08:52 PM   #1911
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by disident View Post
U can do it using highest level of cash game simulation(where rake is not significant for creating ranges) with antes.I have some creations but they are not complete. At first look I can say that this ranges are tighter(also not taking into account ICM or whatever other model u use for tournament play especially for spots like bubble,in the money payouts, final table etc.) and other important thing is that Snowie prefer different(cash game) style even 10 or 15 bb deep. For example, Snowie never goes All in preflop even 10bb.It still will use min raise or limp and play small ball on the flop.Snowie style is closer to FGS than ICM I think.
Thanks for your response.
I meant to use the option of training freezout to then analyze the scenarios. In this mode, you can analize situations with antes and 200bb 100bb 50bb, etc. Of course, the considerations ICM are not covered.
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Old 01-02-2019, 09:34 PM   #1912
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by disident View Post
U can do it using highest level of cash game simulation(where rake is not significant for creating ranges) with antes.I have some creations but they are not complete. At first look I can say that this ranges are tighter(also not taking into account ICM or whatever other model u use for tournament play especially for spots like bubble,in the money payouts, final table etc.) and other important thing is that Snowie prefer different(cash game) style even 10 or 15 bb deep. For example, Snowie never goes All in preflop even 10bb.It still will use min raise or limp and play small ball on the flop.Snowie style is closer to FGS than ICM I think.
Snowie plays so different to the avg mtt player in a lot of spots that it's really hard to know what's good . Like you say , a lot of flatting with shortstacks . Min 3bets at short stack ip and min 4bets both ip and oop at variuos stacks . Opens 2.75x most of the time rather than the 2.2x you usually see at the tables . Bvb with full antes minraising or limping from sb and the strangest is prob minraising bb v sb limp with high freq
There's obvious mistakes though , for example snowie will limp a lot of hands 70bb deep from sb yet bb will minraise 100% of the time and then sb folds a lot of his hands to the minraise So snowie is putting in 0.5bb knowing it will get minraised every time and it then folds every time...
I know snowie isn't playing against snowie and rather it's playing a strategy to beat the "exploiting agents" or w/e it was trained against but even so this seems like a bizarre strategy
There's also some other glaring errors such as if the btn goes allin with a shortstack then sb will iso insanely wide in certain situations . I can't remember exactly and my sub has run out but snowie seems to have real difficulty analysing sizings at shortstacks . For example if you 3bet to 10bb from an 11bb stack it will play a very different range to if you go allin for 11bb !
Weird stuff like that which makes it pretty untrustworthy imo although I do like some of it's "ideas" and like you say it's playing a cash game approach of smallball and never shoving which is the complete opposite to most mtt players

Last edited by Frogman3; 01-02-2019 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 01-03-2019, 01:29 AM   #1913
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Frogman3 View Post
Snowie plays so different to the avg mtt player in a lot of spots that it's really hard to know what's good . Like you say , a lot of flatting with shortstacks . Min 3bets at short stack ip and min 4bets both ip and oop at variuos stacks . Opens 2.75x most of the time rather than the 2.2x you usually see at the tables . Bvb with full antes minraising or limping from sb and the strangest is prob minraising bb v sb limp with high freq
There's obvious mistakes though , for example snowie will limp a lot of hands 70bb deep from sb yet bb will minraise 100% of the time and then sb folds a lot of his hands to the minraise Pokersnowie question So snowie is putting in 0.5bb knowing it will get minraised every time and it then folds every time...
I know snowie isn't playing against snowie and rather it's playing a strategy to beat the "exploiting agents" or w/e it was trained against but even so this seems like a bizarre strategy
There's also some other glaring errors such as if the btn goes allin with a shortstack then sb will iso insanely wide in certain situations . I can't remember exactly and my sub has run out but snowie seems to have real difficulty analysing sizings at shortstacks . For example if you 3bet to 10bb from an 11bb stack it will play a very different range to if you go allin for 11bb !
Weird stuff like that which makes it pretty untrustworthy imo although I do like some of it's "ideas" and like you say it's playing a cash game approach of smallball and never shoving which is the complete opposite to most mtt players
First time I have full subscription I didn't used it much but I can say from first impressions that Snowie's ultimate strategy is "play in position" or "play your final move in position".We will see more and more Snowie like moves in Mtt fields in near future.If u put it in PIO u will get similar solutions for those spots.Solvers will not play push/fold even 5bb deep because it is easy to play optimal against that strategy.Solvers will mix it and use top range for limping and speculative hands for pushing.

Last edited by disident; 01-03-2019 at 01:31 AM. Reason: Missed something
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Old 01-03-2019, 01:52 AM   #1914
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Snowie style of playing is very close to Future Game Simulations model for mtt play that starts to dominate over ICM model."Mad genius of poker" Mike Caro 10 years ago used to say that tournaments should not exist in poker but since that they gain so much in popularity they r here to stay.So when asked what is the proper strategy for mtts he said "just try to min. cash".Basically u try to 1.7-2.0x your investment.FGS model is even more "survive in the tournament " or "delay your moves " than ICM is.It is all about "realise your equity " because that's max EV.
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Old 01-03-2019, 10:37 AM   #1915
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Snowie can only choose 1 size so it's usefulness for short stack play is very limited. When you get to sub 50bb play not being able to use both an allin and a regular sizing will bleed a lot of ev. If it had the freedom to use both it would certainly have allin ranges in a variety of spots.

Of course you're right that pure push/fold is a very weak strategy, but not having a push range at all is also weak.

Where Snowie is useful for short stack play is showing you how range composition should change from 100bb to 30bb play. For example not many people realize that at shallow stacks K9o is a superior hand to 33 or 65s. It's preference for larger open sizes is also correct and likely even better in practice due to how the MTT population plays.
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Old 01-03-2019, 11:49 AM   #1916
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by getmeoffcompletely View Post
Snowie can only choose 1 size so it's usefulness for short stack play is very limited. When you get to sub 50bb play not being able to use both an allin and a regular sizing will bleed a lot of ev. If it had the freedom to use both it would certainly have allin ranges in a variety of spots.

Of course you're right that pure push/fold is a very weak strategy, but not having a push range at all is also weak.

Where Snowie is useful for short stack play is showing you how range composition should change from 100bb to 30bb play. For example not many people realize that at shallow stacks K9o is a superior hand to 33 or 65s. It's preference for larger open sizes is also correct and likely even better in practice due to how the MTT population plays.
It has 4 betting sizes 25,50,100,200/All in.It is considering 1 size as optimal for a particular spots for it's range but it has 4 .I did a scenarios for 8bb deep 4 max(for simulations of Natural8 All in or Fold format).It's always choosing All in as a open raise.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:46 AM   #1917
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I was analyzing some spots to discover from which where snowie directly recommends the push as an open raise. The results are at least curious.
In ep1, ep3 and mp1 where from which it starts going allin is 4.5 bb
In ep2 it does not go all-in at any time (???)
In mp2 from 6bb
In co from 7bb
In btn from 8bb
In sb he likes to open, just from 3.5bb only push
Theories?
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:53 AM   #1918
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I feel really dumb for asking this question, but I'm going to:

I've been playing snowie a lot lately. I get, what appears to be, contradictory input regarding AK pre. I have 4bet and been given a "blunder" being told I should have folded. I have flatted a 3bet and been given a "blunder" being told I should have raised. I cannot find a pattern here. It doesn't seem to be about position or suitedness. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks.
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:35 AM   #1919
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by I_lose View Post
I feel really dumb for asking this question, but I'm going to:

I've been playing snowie a lot lately. I get, what appears to be, contradictory input regarding AK pre. I have 4bet and been given a "blunder" being told I should have folded. I have flatted a 3bet and been given a "blunder" being told I should have raised. I cannot find a pattern here. It doesn't seem to be about position or suitedness. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks.
In which spots and what's the level?
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Old 01-09-2019, 02:13 AM   #1920
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Re: Pokersnowie question

(I didn't know changing levels changed anything. I always wondered why it was even an option.) I have it set at 1/2

Hand One: 6 Max
Folds to hero UTG+1 raises to 7 AKo
folds to BB who reraises to 22
Hero 4bets to 67
Snowie rates this a blunder, telling me to chose my bluff hands better

Hand Two: 6 Max
V is UTG raises to 5
folds to hero in BB: Raises to 16 AKo
V 4bets to 49
Hero calls
Snowie rates an blunder saying I should have folded

Hand 3: 6max
folds to V1 on Button who raises to 7
V2 in SB reraises to 23
Hero in BB Flats AKs
snowie rates this an blunder saying I should have raised.

Hand 4: 6max
Hero UTG raises to 7 AKo
V UTG+1 reraises to 24
Hero calls
snowie rates this a blunder saying I should have raised

I'm sure that there is a pattern here, and it's probably painfully obvious, but I'm missing it. I know that we are less inclined to stack off with AK these days, that we don't want to stack off with a one pair hand. So flatting a 3 bet makes sense, but there seems to be a mixed strat here that I can't follow. (edit: I know my sizing is off in some spots. One thing I have learned is using smaller sizing in early position and larger sizing later. But I doubt that's affecting these spots much.)

Thank you

Last edited by I_lose; 01-09-2019 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 01-09-2019, 06:30 AM   #1921
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Re: Pokersnowie question

You're just thinking about your hand (AK) and presuming you should play it the same way in every spot, but each of those 4 spots are quite different to each other, and the opponent has a different range each time.

1. You are UTG v BB. His 3-betting range is extremely narrow, but you have position on him. You can - and indeed should - call, because he never 5-bets worse than AK, but you can certainly be ahead of (or out-flop) his 3-bet range. Being in position means you'll be able to realize your equity better than you could if the roles were reversed.

2. You are in BB v UTG, so the ranges are super-tight as per hand #1. Villain's 4-bet range is AA and some occasional Axs bluffs. He doesn't even have KK/QQ in his 4-bet range, so you should fold AK to the 4-bet. (You should only rarely call 4-bets OOP).

3. You're in the BB facing an open and a 3-bet. Pretty much any playable hand has to be a cold 4-bet. You can't flat AKs there when you're not closing the action and there's loads of dead money already out there. 4-bet it to try and pick up all the dead money.

4. You're UTG and villain 3-bets UTG+1. His range is very strong, but you shouldn't be calling 3-bets OOP with many hands. AKo is a perfect balancer for your QQ+ 4-bets (and it blocks villain's AA/KK), so you should 4-bet it.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:10 AM   #1922
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Yep,Arty is the one to explain.Snowie is playing against it's own optimal ranges.
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:05 PM   #1923
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
You're just thinking about your hand (AK) and presuming you should play it the same way in every spot, but each of those 4 spots are quite different to each other, and the opponent has a different range each time.

1. You are UTG v BB. His 3-betting range is extremely narrow, but you have position on him. You can - and indeed should - call, because he never 5-bets worse than AK, but you can certainly be ahead of (or out-flop) his 3-bet range. Being in position means you'll be able to realize your equity better than you could if the roles were reversed.

2. You are in BB v UTG, so the ranges are super-tight as per hand #1. Villain's 4-bet range is AA and some occasional Axs bluffs. He doesn't even have KK/QQ in his 4-bet range, so you should fold AK to the 4-bet. (You should only rarely call 4-bets OOP).

3. You're in the BB facing an open and a 3-bet. Pretty much any playable hand has to be a cold 4-bet. You can't flat AKs there when you're not closing the action and there's loads of dead money already out there. 4-bet it to try and pick up all the dead money.

4. You're UTG and villain 3-bets UTG+1. His range is very strong, but you shouldn't be calling 3-bets OOP with many hands. AKo is a perfect balancer for your QQ+ 4-bets (and it blocks villain's AA/KK), so you should 4-bet it.

Thank you so much. I have a lot to think about. I appreciate your toughts
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Old 01-10-2019, 01:08 PM   #1924
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Re: Pokersnowie question

New to Snowie and this thread so sorry if this kind of thing has been covered.

9-handed $2.50/$5.00NL

MP3 raises to 11, hero calls from cutoff with 99, BB calls

Flop k67 ($35.50)

MP3 bets 9, Hero Calls, BB folds

turn 5 ($53.50)

MP3 bets $27, Hero calls

River K ($107.50)

MP3 bets $54, Hero Calls

So Snowie calls the river call a blunder which is fine i guess. But when i went in and looked at the range advice i don't understand Snowies suggestions.

When Snowie bets the river Im ahead of his range 35% of the time including a bunch of missed flush draws as well as a couple 2pair hands i am ahead of.

Snowie suggests i call with only 5.76% of my range including KTsuited and QQ (only 18% of qq combos call, the rest fold). it has me folding all other two pairs as well as my flush draws.

the ranges all make sense but i don't understand how he can be bluffing 35% but i'm only calling with my top 5.76%. Am i missing something?
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Old 01-10-2019, 05:37 PM   #1925
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Snowie is playing against it's own optimal ranges.
as far as i know that is not true. snowie has played against many different strategies and gives advise due to his expierence. Snowie does not try to counter it´s own strategy. so there spots where snowie advise you to fold even so you would have the odds to call vs snowie´s range...sometimes it wants you to call a river bet even though you loose pretty much against snowie´s entire range
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