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Old 11-20-2018, 03:12 PM   #1851
ArtyMcFly
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Zuko View Post
6 bb - 38%

why is the 2.0 pot raise size range so wide ?
Presumably the neural net found that using the extra-large size created so much additional fold equity that some hands that are not profitable opens for 3x become +EV for 6x.
The same thing can happen post-flop of course. If you overbet the river, you can put more bluffs in your range than you could with a small bet, due to the increased fold equity.
All Snowie cares about is maximising the overall EV of its strategy. While it might be able to play a wider range for 6bb, the overall EV will be slightly better with a narrower range and a smaller sizing. (i.e. 3.5bb might be the "happy medium" where your value-raises get good action, and quite a lot of bluffs get thru 'cheaply').
Note the same phenomenon occurs in tournaments, where you can open jam 15bb with a much wider range than you could open for 3x or a minraise.
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Old 11-20-2018, 07:39 PM   #1852
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Re: Pokersnowie question

does that mean a nemesis who knows the 2.0 pot range from snowie can exploit it by "not tighten up" that much vs the bigger raise size?
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Old 11-20-2018, 08:12 PM   #1853
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I haven't given it much thought, but a nemesis would probably 3-bet a lot and not call very often. You can use the scenario builder and range analyser to find out what Snowie itself would do vs a 6bb open. Snowie is probably a little bit exploitable (e.g. it probably folds "too much"), as I doubt Snowie defends very well vs the large size, as it wouldn't have trained so much vs that uncommon size. (It also has some difficulty when facing huge overbets post-flop, a bit like real people do.)
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Old 11-21-2018, 02:11 PM   #1854
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Re: Pokersnowie question

BB vs BTN 0.5 Pot open
Fold 50% , call 39% , Raise Pot 10 %

BB vs BTN 2.0 open
Fold 88% , Call 3.4% , Raise 8.2 %

considering BTN has pretty much the same Range... BB tightens a lot IMO.


SB also Folds 90%ish vs a 6 bb open.
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Old 11-22-2018, 02:24 AM   #1855
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Zuko View Post
BB vs BTN 0.5 Pot open
Fold 50% , call 39% , Raise Pot 10 %

BB vs BTN 2.0 open
Fold 88% , Call 3.4% , Raise 8.2 %

considering BTN has pretty much the same Range... BB tightens a lot IMO.


SB also Folds 90%ish vs a 6 bb open.
When u bet 0.5pot u r giving yourself 3:1 odds(3 value bets for every 1 bluff combo)...When u bet 2x pot it is 3:2 odds ratio(3 value bets for every 2 bluff combos)...0.25×pot produces 5:1 odds ratio(5 value bets for 1 bluff combo).That's why fish players sometimes randomly use gto bet sizes(min betting for 3 streets when they hit the board).

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Last edited by disident; 11-22-2018 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 11-22-2018, 11:58 AM   #1856
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by disident View Post
When u bet 0.5pot u r giving yourself 3:1 odds(3 value bets for every 1 bluff combo)...When u bet 2x pot it is 3:2 odds ratio(3 value bets for every 2 bluff combos)...0.25×pot produces 5:1 odds ratio(5 value bets for 1 bluff combo).That's why fish players sometimes randomly use gto bet sizes(min betting for 3 streets when they hit the board).

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we were talking about a preflop raise first in spot (button steal) 0.5pot is 2.25 bb and 2.0 pot is 6bb.
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Old 11-22-2018, 01:28 PM   #1857
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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we were talking about a preflop raise first in spot (button steal) 0.5pot is 2.25 bb and 2.0 pot is 6bb.
It creates big pot,one bet less for the stacks to get in on future streets.Position is the key.Out of position is a big disadvantage when SPR is smaller.

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Old 11-22-2018, 03:05 PM   #1858
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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It creates big pot,one bet less for the stacks to get in on future streets.Position is the key.Out of position is a big disadvantage when SPR is smaller.

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that really doesnt answer any question asked, but thank you.
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Old 11-22-2018, 04:06 PM   #1859
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Out of position is a big disadvantage when SPR is smaller.
You have it backwards. Higher SPRs favour the player that is in position. When stacks are shorter (lower SPR), it's easier for the OOP player to realize his equity. (e.g. in a short-stacked tourney situation, you can donk-shove or check-shove the flop and realize 100% of your equity. You can't donk-shove 200bb effectively. The risk:reward ratio is out of whack).
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Old 11-22-2018, 07:01 PM   #1860
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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You have it backwards. Higher SPRs favour the player that is in position. When stacks are shorter (lower SPR), it's easier for the OOP player to realize his equity. (e.g. in a short-stacked tourney situation, you can donk-shove or check-shove the flop and realize 100% of your equity. You can't donk-shove 200bb effectively. The risk:reward ratio is out of whack).
Exactly ,but post flop.This is preflop situation 100bb deep cash game.He asked why Snowbot is going in a post flop war with only 10% of hands.It will be easier for bot to realize his equity with a tighter range post flop(probably only betting only 2 streets and getting his stack in)There is no other logic when the difference between 0.5pot and 2pot opening range is only 4% and bot is taking completely different defending strategy.

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Old 11-22-2018, 09:46 PM   #1861
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Re: Pokersnowie question

doesnt make sense to me... u are supposed to fold marginal hands when it is more difficult for you to realize your equity with these holdings... lower spr = less positional disatvantage = easier to realize equity... so no tighter range would be needed.
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Old 11-23-2018, 01:53 AM   #1862
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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doesnt make sense to me... u are supposed to fold marginal hands when it is more difficult for you to realize your equity with these holdings... lower spr = less positional disatvantage = easier to realize equity... so no tighter range would be needed.
Well it is not that much smaller if it is Bet/Call line.On the flop there will be 6+1,5+5=12.5bb pot with 94bb left effective. If the line is Bet/Raise/Call it will be smaller for sure.6+0.5+18+12=36.5bb pot with 82bb effective.

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Old 11-23-2018, 03:24 AM   #1863
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Re: Pokersnowie question

By the way,there is 30%off Black Friday value on PRO package. Realise your equity fellas!Pokersnowie question

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Old 11-29-2018, 11:19 AM   #1864
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Hi,

I'm considering PS given the discount given and so I'm trying it out, especially the trainer. Is it possible figuring out the why he suggests given bet sizes? For example, sometimes it says I should bet half pot or 1 pot but I'm not able to understand why.
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Old 11-29-2018, 02:07 PM   #1865
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Hi,

I'm considering PS given the discount given and so I'm trying it out, especially the trainer. Is it possible figuring out the why he suggests given bet sizes? For example, sometimes it says I should bet half pot or 1 pot but I'm not able to understand why.
Bot is choosing bet size that is best for your range against range of your opponent (it plays against itself so bot knows which combos r still in the mix for both players in particular situations ).U should look for patterns.Usually when player's range in position hit the board heavy on the flop 0.25pot is recommended size.On wet boards bigger size bets r recommended.

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Old 12-02-2018, 12:14 AM   #1866
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I'm trying to implement a 2x-pot 3bet strategy in the BB against a LJ open. The reason I want this, is beacuse we laerned from solvers that 2x-pot is abetter strategy overall. But when I take a look at Snowies strategy, I'm a bit confused.



Why does it choose to 3bet so many of the offsuit aces? Why not pick the suited aces as bluffs? What is interesting is that if I choose a 1x-pot 3bet strategy, then suddenly Snowie wants to use the suited aces as bluffs instead of the offsuit ones.

I really dont understand.
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Old 12-02-2018, 04:04 AM   #1867
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I'm guessing it's because of more polarization so that we don't need the extra playability of the suitedness when we get called due to people playing fold or shove vs the 2x pot and that we would be giving up ev from the suitedness if we put it into the 2x range?
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Old 12-02-2018, 07:53 AM   #1868
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Letricle View Post
I'm guessing it's because of more polarization so that we don't need the extra playability of the suitedness when we get called due to people playing fold or shove vs the 2x pot and that we would be giving up ev from the suitedness if we put it into the 2x range?
Perhaps. Lower SPR makes suited hands lose their value relative to offsuit ones. And maybe it is better putting the suited aces in the calling range then instead.
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Old 12-02-2018, 09:23 AM   #1869
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Re: Pokersnowie question

That's really interesting tbh. I would guess it's just a random Snowie spaz but it can't be a coincidence that it's well aware that A2o-A5o are better bluff raises than A6o-ATo.
I guess Snowie really is the GOAT preflop. I might renew with the intermediate sub just for preflop stuff.
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Old 12-02-2018, 09:27 AM   #1870
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I do wonder though what its 5bet shoving range looks like. Is it really shoving low offsuit aces? Does it even need to have any "bluffs"?
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:25 AM   #1871
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by SolverGuy View Post
I'm trying to implement a 2x-pot 3bet strategy in the BB against a LJ open. The reason I want this, is beacuse we laerned from solvers that 2x-pot is abetter strategy overall. But when I take a look at Snowies strategy, I'm a bit confused.



Why does it choose to 3bet so many of the offsuit aces? Why not pick the suited aces as bluffs? What is interesting is that if I choose a 1x-pot 3bet strategy, then suddenly Snowie wants to use the suited aces as bluffs instead of the offsuit ones.

I really dont understand.
LJ range is Ace heavy so when u hold an Ace u are blocking a lot of combos of LJ's top range(like 50% of AA,25% of AK etc.).And I guess there is a lot of fold equity there pre flop and not much playability post flop for off suit Aces.Snowbot simplifies the game as much as it can.

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Old 12-02-2018, 10:34 AM   #1872
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Someone knows where I can find some free range charts for heads up, up to 25bbs deep? A lot of people says snowie ranges are good for 6 max cash preflop, someone knows some equivalent ranges in terms of quality to heads up hypers?

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Old 12-02-2018, 10:36 AM   #1873
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by disident View Post
LJ range is Ace heavy so when u hold an Ace u are blocking a lot of combos of LJ's top range(like 50% of AA,25% of AK etc.).And I guess there is a lot of fold equity there pre flop and not much playability post flop for off suit Aces.Snowbot simplifies the game as much as it can.

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But can't the same thing be said for suited aces?
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:03 PM   #1874
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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But can't the same thing be said for suited aces?
It is choosing to call with suited Aces from the BB position only.Probably because of dead money already invested.It is all about EV making or not. For 2pot size it is choosing just to call and use off suited Aces for bluffs.

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Old 12-02-2018, 12:22 PM   #1875
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by mrno1324 View Post
I do wonder though what its 5bet shoving range looks like. Is it really shoving low offsuit aces? Does it even need to have any "bluffs"?
Snowie line usually is 3bet pot/4bet pot/5bet0.25pot and then either 6bet0.25pot/7betAllin/call or 6betAllin/call.Off suited Aces never get so far.I can check ,don't know exactly, I think everything is linear after 4bet pot.

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