Two Plus Two Poker Forums Pokersnowie question
 Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read TwoPlusTwo.com

 Notices

 Poker Theory General poker theory

06-17-2018, 11:12 PM   #1751
disident
journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 271
Re: Pokersnowie question

That's why I said it deviates from GTO but the principle is the same.Check for EV's results in solver and Snowie and then lock solver to 100% check and compare the results (also ranges).
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jasonhau An interesting scenario compares to solver and snowie: 100% copy the preflop range from snowie to solver. UTG open half pot and BTN 3bet 1 pot then UTG call; Flop 222; snowie suggest 100% check But solver suggest 100% donk Postflop size setting: snowie recommend OOP 25% size on the flop so I give a 25% bet size in solver and give IP 100% bet size(also by snowie's recommend after OOP checked). Does that mean exist multiple GTO solution in poker…(I don't know what happened...) I can paste the solver file: https://d.pr/FREE/hxqZj6

06-18-2018, 10:01 AM   #1752
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 11,938
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jasonhau Does that mean exist multiple GTO solution in poker…
No, well, kinda. It means that Snowie has a strategy for the UTG player that Snowie thinks is best against various strategies (including sub-optimal ones) of the 3-bettor, because the neural net trained against "random" agents, not perfect/optimal players.
e.g. If the 3-bettor had a particularly tight/strong range (i.e. he played tighter than Snowie would), then donking into him might be very bad.

Solvers like GTO+ find (near) perfect solutions for specific ranges. Snowie offers ranges that supposedly do well against "randoms" as well. This is one of the many problems with the term "game theory optimal" itself. A solver can produce an "optimal" strategy for how to play against a specific and known range/strategy, but if your opponent has a different range/strategy, the solver's recommendation is no longer perfect/optimal, since it won't maximise EV against every possible strategy.
Snowie offers strategies that should do well on average vs nits and lags, but this might not be ideal when it's up against a nemesis, or a version of itself.

Last edited by ArtyMcFly; 06-18-2018 at 10:12 AM.

 06-18-2018, 11:39 AM #1753 RustyBrooks Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 24,289 Re: Pokersnowie question I don't use snowie, *are* those really the same range? For JJ you have JcJd but there are 6 JJ variations. The reason this might be important is that there are 6 pair variations but only 4 XYs variations, so if you include just a single example of each hand type, then the overall distribution is skewed (it makes the XYs hands appear more common than they actually are) (Also, snowie has not actually solved GTO. I don't know in the solver's case whether it can be considered solved either - From my understanding you can get an optimal (or near optimial) solution from "this point forward" but that doesn't actually mean that the node you're currently on is even part of the GTO solution at all. In essence it lets you find a solution to a modified game.
 06-27-2018, 04:06 AM #1754 disident journeyman   Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 271 Re: Pokersnowie question There is an update.Snowbot goes all in on training.Goodbye Challenges!!! ...and hello tournaments train mode.
 06-27-2018, 08:33 AM #1755 ArtyMcFly Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Enchantment Under the Sea Posts: 11,938 Re: Pokersnowie question On the day my annual subscription expired? It's so rigged! Any info/screengrabs on the new features?
06-27-2018, 10:44 AM   #1756
disident
journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 271
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly On the day my annual subscription expired? It's so rigged! Any info/screengrabs on the new features?
I haven't checked yet all the improvements but mainly ... http://www.pokersnowie.com/blog/2018...ining-platform
Customized spots r good improvement i think.

06-27-2018, 12:51 PM   #1757
Husker
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holsten's Diner
Posts: 11,707
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly On the day my annual subscription expired? It's so rigged! Any info/screengrabs on the new features?
Weird coincidence Arty as mine expired today as well. I got an email from them telling me they've reactivated my free trial though. Not sure what that's about.

 06-27-2018, 02:39 PM #1758 NoSurprises old hand     Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,742 Re: Pokersnowie question When in training mode using the Cash game training, the auto rebuy is not working. I've tried 100% and 90% but the stack keeps dwindling so that needs to be looked at.
 06-27-2018, 06:15 PM #1759 ArtyMcFly Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Enchantment Under the Sea Posts: 11,938 Re: Pokersnowie question Thanks for the link, disident. I ended up finding it shortly after posting. Husk, I remember you tipping me off about the discount price a year ago, so that must have been why I renewed. I'm trying to resist the urge to sub again. The new features sound quite cool.
06-28-2018, 12:09 PM   #1760
Husker
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holsten's Diner
Posts: 11,707
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly Thanks for the link, disident. I ended up finding it shortly after posting. Husk, I remember you tipping me off about the discount price a year ago, so that must have been why I renewed. I'm trying to resist the urge to sub again. The new features sound quite cool.
I haven't bothered this year. It's GTO+ for me these days.

06-28-2018, 01:24 PM   #1761
mrno1324
veteran

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 2,608
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Husker I haven't bothered this year. It's GTO+ for me these days.
Off topic but how are you finding gto+? I can’t seem to figure out why it’s much cheaper than pio and SP. are the solves as accurate?

06-28-2018, 02:22 PM   #1762
disident
journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 271
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mrno1324 Off topic but how are you finding gto+? I can’t seem to figure out why it’s much cheaper than pio and SP. are the solves as accurate?
Exactly the same results like PIO if the trees/situation that u r solving r same.Perfect for the money.Also is user friendly(easy).I was lucky to have bought CREV so I got it for free.
U can go to gto+ main site and check the videos.It is all explained.

 07-29-2018, 12:51 PM #1763 stumbras journeyman   Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Denver Posts: 371 Re: Pokersnowie question Anybody tried new training features on snowie recently?
 07-30-2018, 03:15 PM #1764 ToiletBowler adept     Join Date: May 2016 Location: My PG&C Posts: 1,018 Re: Pokersnowie question Hiya Does anyone know how the "EV" of a move in training mode is calculated? I.e. if i make a river raise worth 15 EV but calling is worth 16 EV, how does it work this out? Does it calculate what Snowie's whole range would do and then work out the EV for my specific hand? Or some other method i.e. how well Snowie's raise or call worked vs the agents it played against?
07-31-2018, 05:50 PM   #1765
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 11,938
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ToiletBowler Does anyone know how the "EV" of a move in training mode is calculated? I.e. if i make a river raise worth 15 EV but calling is worth 16 EV, how does it work this out? Does it calculate what Snowie's whole range would do and then work out the EV for my specific hand? Or some other method i.e. how well Snowie's raise or call worked vs the agents it played against?
I think the software just looks at an analogous situation in its database and looks up what the final result was when it took each option with the particular combo you're looking at. This is basically how the "bot" makes its decisions. It looks to maximise its EV, based on previous similar situations.
e.g. If its database says all combos of AA won 6.04bb (or whatever it says) on average when it was raised UTG, and that's more than it made by limping, then it would raise AA UTG, since it has an expectation of making 6bb by doing that.
Any hand with a EV of <0.0bb (as a raise or call) is folded pre.

In some spots you'll find that betting one size will have a higher EV than another size, and it will still pick the size with the lower EV, but that's because its worked out which size generates the most EV for the range as a whole.
Where the EV of raising or calling is exactly the same, a mixed strategy is used, but if one option is definitively better (e.g. the 15EVbb raise vs a 16EVbb call), it will always do the one with the higher EV (a so-called "pure strategy").

EDIT: On a related note, Snowie's EV numbers are often quite different to what you might experience in real life. For example, in every database I've ever looked at, aces won at least 10bb per hand as a raise first in. Snowie's pseudo GTO play implies the rockets only win at about 6-7bb in the nittier games that Snowie "learned" to play.

Last edited by ArtyMcFly; 07-31-2018 at 05:57 PM.

 07-31-2018, 06:58 PM #1766 stumbras journeyman   Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Denver Posts: 371 Re: Pokersnowie question Just bought pro subscription so I am looking for some kind off study plan for next couple months in order to fully take advantage of it. I play line 2/5 and midstakes (200-1500) live tournaments. Any suggestions how to incorporate snowie into my study plan for live poker?
08-01-2018, 10:30 AM   #1767
ToiletBowler

Join Date: May 2016
Location: My PG&C
Posts: 1,018
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly I think the software just looks at an analogous situation in its database and looks up what the final result was when it took each option with the particular combo you're looking at. This is basically how the "bot" makes its decisions. It looks to maximise its EV, based on previous similar situations.
So the evaluation isn't a measure of how well i am doing against Snowie, but a measure of how well i'm doing against the agents it played against?

So potentially I could have a positive winrate vs the machine but be rated as a "beginner". Now i know this is possible even if EV was calculated against Snowie's actual complete ranges (since you'll need to deviate from Snowie to beat Snowie). But this discrepancy can also occur for another reason: my rating is being measured by how well i do vs the training agents, but my \$\$\$ is being measured by Snowie (which exploits the training agents).

i've emailed support to confirm on how the EV is measured. There will always be flaws but i just want to know in what way to adjust to it.

EDIT: this actually makes the most sense, since it explains why there are discrepancies between the hands in Snowie's range and the moves it recommends. Bit dumb though

Last edited by ToiletBowler; 08-01-2018 at 10:40 AM.

08-01-2018, 01:31 PM   #1768
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 11,938
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ToiletBowler So the evaluation isn't a measure of how well i am doing against Snowie, but a measure of how well i'm doing against the agents it played against?
Kind of. The EV numbers are how it decides upon the best play. If you make decisions that - according to Snowie - have a lower EV than other options, it will mark them as errors. When the pot is big, what Snowie calls "blunders" are more common. e.g. If the pot is 50bb on the river, and calling is worth 30bb, but raising is worth 35bb, then calling is a significant blunder, since you missed out on 5bb of EV. It's impossible to make a 5bb blunder pre-flop unless you do something really stupid like folding AA or you open jam 32o. Most pre-flop decisions will be measured in fractions of big blinds. Those pre-flop decisions are still very important though, but errors get compounded across the streets. It's just that with Snowie's scoring system (the "error rate" number), it will be the big pots that have the greatest effect. (You can get a very good/low error rate by playing as a massive nit that just avoids playing big pots).

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ToiletBowler So potentially I could have a positive winrate vs the machine but be rated as a "beginner". Now i know this is possible even if EV was calculated against Snowie's actual complete ranges (since you'll need to deviate from Snowie to beat Snowie).
You can play exactly like Snowie and still win (or lose). There's this thing called "luck".
When the bots are playing each other, using identical strategies, half of them win and half lose, natch. FWIW, I did over 25,000 hands of training with Snowie and somehow beat it without trying to actively exploit it. I think I just ran well.
While it's nice to have a "winning session" vs Snowie, you should ignore the \$ amounts and focus instead on the errors, blunders and balancing frequencies, if you're trying to learn how to play like the bots. The \$ amounts are obviously subject to variance. (e.g. Maybe you get lucky and Snowie spews off with air when you have the nuts, but it only makes that play 1% of the time in the long run).

 08-02-2018, 09:56 PM #1769 stumbras journeyman   Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Denver Posts: 371 Re: Pokersnowie question Any plans adding MTT training option to snowie. Current Freezeout options only allows 10 player max SNG
 08-06-2018, 12:36 PM #1770 stumbras journeyman   Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Denver Posts: 371 Re: Pokersnowie question I play 9 handed cash sessions(2500 hands) with snowie and I beat it but it still shows me at beginner level. It appears that its recommended ranges are super tight. They recommend folding all pairs bellow TT in middle positions. It appears that such ranges would not realy work in live cash games.
 08-06-2018, 04:53 PM #1771 engelsstaub67 stranger   Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 8 Re: Pokersnowie question Pokersnowie check raise with a 1/4 pot sizing on many flops BB against Button. Has anyone ever tried this sizing on real tables? Do you think we can follow these tips?
 08-08-2018, 06:08 AM #1772 getmeoffcompletely old hand     Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,351 Re: Pokersnowie question It may be that something like 40% pot is better, but Snowie doesn't have that raise option. But in regards to how effective it can be, most players will likely not realize how wide they have to continue vs such as small raise, or if they do they will not be familiar with playing turns with wide ranges after flop x/r. Generally speaking any strategy that puts your opponent into parts of the game tree that they are not familiar with will lead to +ev situations.
08-12-2018, 06:11 AM   #1773
grinder

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 411
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by stumbras Just bought pro subscription so I am looking for some kind off study plan for next couple months in order to fully take advantage of it. I play line 2/5 and midstakes (200-1500) live tournaments. Any suggestions how to incorporate snowie into my study plan for live poker?
Yes, great decision. My best recommendation is to practice 9 handed vs the challenger 200 hands at a time then upload and review where all your 1bb+ blunders are to find out where you're making the biggest mistakes. Try to get world class over 1,000 hands before you start deviating from it's recommendations. Also write down interesting decisions that you have at the casino in your phone, but be somewhat discreet about it, don't be antisocial with the phone and you don't want to overwhelm everyone with the fact you're constantly reviewing hands. Just a brief summary to help you remember later.

Quote:
 I play 9 handed cash sessions(2500 hands) with snowie and I beat it but it still shows me at beginner level.It appears that its recommended ranges are super tight. They recommend folding all pairs bellow TT in middle positions. It appears that such ranges would not realy work in live cash games.
It's ranges work for me in live poker. You would be surprised how much \$ I've seen regs lose getting set over set playing small pp's with 7-8 people left to act, especially on deep tables. Snowie is going to figure out whether playing those cards is necessary a lot faster than we will playing only 25/hands per hour live, and it won't be biased by results. Also remember that rake is higher in live games so if anything you want to play tighter than snowie unless you have position on a whale. Best of luck and enjoy the learning curve, don't get too discouraged!

08-12-2018, 06:14 AM   #1774
grinder

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 411
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by getmeoffcompletely It may be that something like 40% pot is better, but Snowie doesn't have that raise option. But in regards to how effective it can be, most players will likely not realize how wide they have to continue vs such as small raise, or if they do they will not be familiar with playing turns with wide ranges after flop x/r. Generally speaking any strategy that puts your opponent into parts of the game tree that they are not familiar with will lead to +ev situations.
Yup. I think the postflop minraise is good in spots where you're oop and don't want villain to take control of the hand and check back vs you on the next street. Or when you have a monster multiways but practically have the boardlock. Or just when villain has tons of air and expect to take it down right away frequently. I would say those are the three main reasons.

08-12-2018, 10:19 AM   #1775
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 11,938
Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by engelsstaub67 Pokersnowie check raise with a 1/4 pot sizing on many flops BB against Button. Has anyone ever tried this sizing on real tables? Do you think we can follow these tips?
I routinely use 34% of pot (which is sometimes just a minraise) and I'm currently crushing in the micros. In my experience, most opponents play horribly against small bets and raises. (They either float too wide, with absolute no hope hands, or they fold too often).

 Thread Tools Display Modes Linear Mode

 Posting Rules You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Rules
 Forum Jump User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home Links to Popular Forums     News, Views, and Gossip     Beginners Questions     Marketplace & Staking     Casino & Cardroom Poker     Internet Poker     NL Strategy Forums     Poker Goals & Challenges     Las Vegas Lifestyle     Sporting Events     Other Other Topics Two Plus Two     About the Forums     Two Plus Two Magazine Forum     The Best of Two Plus Two Marketplace & Staking     Commercial Marketplace     General Marketplace     Staking - Offering Stakes     Staking         Staking - Offering Stakes         Staking - Seeking Stakes         Staking - Selling Shares - Online         Staking - Selling Shares - Live         Staking Rails         Transaction Feedback & Disputes     Transaction Feedback & Disputes Coaching & Training     Coaching Advice     Cash Game Poker Coach Listings     Tournament/SNG Poker Coach Listings Poker News & Discussion     News, Views, and Gossip     Poker Goals & Challenges     Poker Beats, Brags, and Variance     That's What She Said!     Poker Legislation & PPA Discussion hosted by Rich Muny     Twitch - Watch and Discuss Live Online Poker     Televised Poker General Poker Strategy     Beginners Questions     Books and Publications     Poker Tells/Behavior, hosted by: Zachary Elwood     Poker Theory     Psychology No Limit Hold'em Strategy     Medium-High Stakes PL/NL     Micro-Small Stakes PL/NL     Medium-High Stakes Full Ring     Micro-Small Stakes Full Ring     Heads Up NL     Live Low-stakes NL Limit Texas Hold'em Strategy     Mid-High Stakes Limit     Micro-Small Stakes Limit Tournament Poker Strategy     STT Strategy     Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos     Mid-High Stakes MTT     Small Stakes MTT     MTT Community     Tournament Events Other Poker Strategy     High Stakes PL Omaha     Small Stakes PL Omaha     Omaha/8     Stud     Draw and Other Poker Live Poker     Casino & Cardroom Poker         Venues & Communities         Regional Communities     Venues & Communities     Tournament Events         WPT.com     Home Poker     Cash Strategy     Tournament Strategy Internet Poker     Internet Poker         Global Poker         MPN – Microgaming Poker Network         BetOnline.ag Online Poker     Commercial Software     Software         Commercial Software         Free Software General Gambling     Backgammon Forum hosted by Bill Robertie.     Probability     Sports Betting     Other Gambling Games 2+2 Communities     Other Other Topics         OOTV         Game of Thrones     The Lounge: Discussion+Review     EDF     Las Vegas Lifestyle     BBV4Life         omg omg omg     House of Blogs Sports and Games     Sporting Events         Single-Team Season Threads         Fantasy Sports     Fantasy Sports         Sporting Events     Wrestling     Golf     Chess and Other Board Games     Video Games         League of Legends         Hearthstone     Puzzles and Other Games Other Topics     Politics and Society     Playground: Well Named Loves Social Science     History     Business, Finance, and Investing     Science, Math, and Philosophy     Religion, God, and Theology     Travel     Health and Fitness     Laughs or Links!     Computer Technical Help     Programming

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:16 PM.

 Contact Us - Two Plus Two Publishing LLC - Privacy Statement - Top