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Old 05-10-2018, 04:37 PM   #1726
jglsd1
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Re: Pokersnowie question

There was an automatic update yesterday--anyone know what that was about?
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:05 PM   #1727
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Recently I read some paper about Libratus, learn of it based on 3 main components, the most important parts is Nested Subgame Solving——useing real-time computer base supercomputer in Pittsburgh, Libratus can response different bet size on the turn and river bet round.

Then we know Snowie use only 4 bet size with fix range and one size includes the whole range. The AI find the best counter-strategy through board texture. If opponent change the bet size, Snowie doesn't change its strategy, So I curious how Snowie made its range if I don't use the optimal size in his recommended since it not has the ability to resolve, then I find its Advise range doesn't match the Hand range, even I use the optimal bet size, that means: Snowie will change its hand combos after opponent's move.

That's impossible in Solver style software since every hand had fixed on preflop, So in my opinion: I think Snowie has little cheating, maybe that's why It will give some wired advice on the river with the error accumulate. Also I don't know how Snowie designs its range in the challenge.

On Snowie's official website, it has an explanation about this



what do you think about that? Does this strategy really robust like its described?

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Old 06-07-2018, 12:02 AM   #1728
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by jasonhau View Post
what do you think about that? Does this strategy really robust like its described?
Just think about it in simple real life terms; you face a common situation where villain should almost never bluff, say the board paired or something and there's very little fold equity. You could easily argue for a strategy in his shoes to be to have literally 0 bluffing range. But that doesn't mean you should have 0 calling range. It sounds like pokersnowie finds out what is the most profitable play vs a wide range of strategies. So just because Snowie wouldn't bluff in a certain spot, doesn't mean fish won't. So Snowie might hero call in spots where it would never have a bluffing range in villains shoes simply because vs a wide range of strategies it can still profit with that hand. That's why I've always laughed when people say that Snowie doesn't work vs fish or whatever.
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Old 06-07-2018, 12:04 AM   #1729
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Re: Pokersnowie question

On another note, every time I try to login today I get "Pokersnowie encountered a connection problem." Never had that issue for so long before.

Also still hoping one day they train snowie how to play the common limit games like LHE and Omaha8. Seems like a neural network this advanced would learn quickly those games since there's only ever 3 options.

Last edited by Loading....; 06-07-2018 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 06-07-2018, 09:29 AM   #1730
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Yeah, it looks like the server was down all day yesterday. Seems to be working again now.
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Old 06-11-2018, 02:48 PM   #1731
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I am curious if anyone has done a deep dive on Snowie's current strength at shorter stacks? I know years ago it made some very clear errors on sub 20bb stacks. Is this still the case?
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Old 06-11-2018, 07:17 PM   #1732
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Its main weakness at sub 20bb is that it can't shove unless shoving is less than 2x pot.
Since it also doesn't split its short-stack ranges into shoves, limp-calls, limp-folds, limp-shoves, raise-folds, and raise-calls, (and plays all its playable range with one action and size) it's "weaker" than someone playing closer to optimal.
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Old 06-11-2018, 07:21 PM   #1733
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Snowbot is always playing small ball...never shoves pre(probably it is the right play anyway).
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Old 06-11-2018, 08:16 PM   #1734
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Are the ranges in Snowie's preflop advisor arrived at in a raked or unranked environment?

And does anybody think they are a bit tight in late position vs blind 4-bet/5-bet spots, or maybe just unusual?

BTN opens, SB 3-bets, BTN continues seems reasonable:


But BTN opens, BB 3-bets, BTN continues seems unusual:


QQ not a 4-bet, and KK only at .84

These are the SB and BB 3-bet ranges, respectively:



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Old 06-12-2018, 10:33 PM   #1735
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I am having problems importing ignition HH from HM2 into snowie - anyone know the fix?
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:32 PM   #1736
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
Originally Posted by NVF View Post
Are the ranges in Snowie's preflop advisor arrived at in a raked or unranked environment?

And does anybody think they are a bit tight in late position vs blind 4-bet/5-bet spots, or maybe just unusual?
The pre-flop advisor ranges appear to be (more or less) the same as it uses for 200NL with rake. (The full version recommends tighter ranges for lower stakes with higher rake, and vice versa).

In what way do you think they are unusual? If you mean "different to a lot of regs at XX NL on site YY", then I agree. No one (including coaches) has completely solved the 3b/4b/5b 'problem'. Snowie also uses different sizes to most players and that naturally creates different ranges.
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:33 AM   #1737
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
The pre-flop advisor ranges appear to be (more or less) the same as it uses for 200NL with rake. (The full version recommends tighter ranges for lower stakes with higher rake, and vice versa).

In what way do you think they are unusual? If you mean "different to a lot of regs at XX NL on site YY", then I agree. No one (including coaches) has completely solved the 3b/4b/5b 'problem'. Snowie also uses different sizes to most players and that naturally creates different ranges.
KK as <.9 4-bet and QQ/JJ never 4bet BTN vs BB seems remarkably unusual. It's not what I see regs doing anywhere. It also doesn't have an immediately obvious reason to me since the SB and BB 3-bet vs BTN ranges are not that far off from each other, and in the BTN vs BB scenario there's even an extra dead .5 BB to fight for.
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:57 AM   #1738
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Any preflop action is extremely sensitive to what sizing you use. Snowie always uses the pot raise, even in position. For that huge size you have to 4bet more polarized. People in practice use more of a 2.3x 4bet IP so that allows them to expand the value range to QQ. JJ should still mostly be a flat even with the smaller 4bet size.

I do think that regs are too aggro preflop in position in general. Software heavily favors playing the 88 through JJ portion more passively in position.
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:45 PM   #1739
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Part of what seems to drive Snowie's PSB 4B on BTN is BB's response to smaller 4B sizes. I don't have exact numbers in mind but the BB hates folding to small 4Bs.
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Old 06-13-2018, 03:49 PM   #1740
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Re: Pokersnowie question

hello, pokersnowie range advisor does not seem to work for me today.
I am doing some studying towards ranges and would need snowie's betsizes in bigblinds for raise first in and 3bets sizes from the preflopadvisor app to continue with my calculations. If anyone can give me those, would be verry much appreciated.
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:35 PM   #1741
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1270 View Post
Part of what seems to drive Snowie's PSB 4B on BTN is BB's response to smaller 4B sizes. I don't have exact numbers in mind but the BB hates folding to small 4Bs.
Yeah. In standard 100bb cash games, remember that a pot-sized raise (Snowie's typical 3-bet and 4-bet size) lays odds of 2:1 on a call. If you go smaller, the price is "too cheap" to fold at a high frequency, since so many hands will realize enough equity to break even. Even vs a pot-sized 4-bet, the BB can flat some hands, since it effectively only needs to win a third of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rerange View Post
hello, pokersnowie range advisor does not seem to work for me today.
I am doing some studying towards ranges and would need snowie's betsizes in bigblinds for raise first in and 3bets sizes from the preflopadvisor app to continue with my calculations. If anyone can give me those, would be verry much appreciated.
It depends which format and stake level you're playing and what the stack sizes are.
You can look at its suggestions for 6-max 200NL cash at https://www.pokersnowie.com/preflop-advisor.html. In the pro version for 100bb cash at most limits it opens for 1/2 pot (2.25bb) or 1/4 pot (minraise) and 3-bets with a pot-sized raise. (One difference for lower stakes is that it opens for 3.5bb on the button up to 100NL, mainly due to the higher rake and tighter ranges). If you're playing a game with antes, it's totally different.
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Old 06-14-2018, 05:21 PM   #1742
rerange
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Re: Pokersnowie question

what about the free preflop advisor app? I am really confused about this.
there it uses 0.5 pot for raise first in (utg-bu) & 1 pot from the sb. 3bets are all 1 pot vs 3bb, 10.5bb or 7.5bb not sure what it uses...
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Old 06-14-2018, 05:26 PM   #1743
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I don't understand what you're confused about. In a normal 200NL cash game, Snowie opens for 2.25bb except in the SB (3bb), and 3-bets are almost always pot-sized, as are 4-bets.
In real life, players use a variety of other sizes, frequently making smaller 3-bets in position and larger 3-bets out of the blinds, and then fairly small 4-bets. Snowie likes pot.
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Old 06-14-2018, 05:36 PM   #1744
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Re: Pokersnowie question

ok so in the "?" section off the app "unless otherwise indicated, it is assumed that the opponents always open raise to 3bb whereas you, as the player, would raise to 2.5bb before facing further action."
so now if i go to open position utg preflop advice it shows best raise size 0.5 pot wich would be 2.25 and not 2.5bb? then on the smallblind it shows best raise size 1 pot. this doesn't not make allot off sense to me at all. i have tried the support and also they are not giving me a straigth answer but give a example how the pot is calculated and give me 2 possible outcomes wich also made no sense.
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Old 06-14-2018, 06:43 PM   #1745
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
Originally Posted by rerange View Post
ok so in the "?" section off the app "unless otherwise indicated, it is assumed that the opponents always open raise to 3bb whereas you, as the player, would raise to 2.5bb before facing further action."
so now if i go to open position utg preflop advice it shows best raise size 0.5 pot wich would be 2.25 and not 2.5bb? then on the smallblind it shows best raise size 1 pot. this doesn't not make allot off sense to me at all. i have tried the support and also they are not giving me a straigth answer but give a example how the pot is calculated and give me 2 possible outcomes wich also made no sense.
0.5pot size is 2.25 bb...pot size is 3.5bb...when on SB position pot size bet is = 3bb(since u already have invested 0.5bb in the pot).It bets pot from SB because of the rake and because it will play out of position vs. BB.Snowie prefers also pot size open from CO and BTN at micro stakes.It is simple strategy ,to end the hand pre flop ,not to pay rake.Bot has ranges for all 4 size bets that it uses.Bigger the open size is tighter is the range...Keep in mind that bot don't want action usually. It wants you to fold when it's betting.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:58 PM   #1746
rerange
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Re: Pokersnowie question

3th re send to support, i hope they can give me a solid answer to what sizing snowie uses in the preflop advisor given the range it shows.
0.5 pot = 2.25bb, preflop advisor help section tells 2.5bb it just bothers me.
i will post their final e-mail here tomorrow.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:35 AM   #1747
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Oh, I think I know what you mean. In the (free) online advisor app, it uses 2.5bb or 3bb as an open. In the full pro/download version, Snowie more commonly opens for 2.25bb (half pot).

FWIW, pre-flop raise sizes in a 100bb game don't actually make a whole lot of difference to the EV of your strategy, provided your ranges are reasonable. You can make money if you minraise or use 3.5bb, or anything in between. The same thing kind of applies to 3-bets and 4-bets too. Snowie usually uses "pot" for those, but obviously there are crushers that like making small 3-bets/4-bets. As long as the sizing makes sense for your range (e.g. play a bit tighter if the open is big, be more "value-heavy" if you 4-bet small), I wouldn't stress over whether 2.25x is "better" than 3x.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:20 AM   #1748
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Re: Pokersnowie question

yeah, so after 4 mails

"Unfortunately we believe much of this confusion has been caused because the free app Preflop Advisor has been built using the older version of the AI (prior to October 2016), therefore there are a few differences with respect to what you currently see using the Preflop Advice feature on PokerSnowie. We apologise for any inconvenience and confusion caused.
We would recommend to use the Preflop Advisor from within the PokerSnowie desktop application"

still mindboggled, I asked these questions with hand and feet and support is like some RMA support guy living by rule nr1: whatever you do don't admit or deny anything.
just fails to come with a answer
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:25 AM   #1749
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Re: Pokersnowie question

and thanks for your answers @ArtyMcFly i will take your answer as correct and ignore the 0.5pot 1 pot stuff.
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Old 06-17-2018, 07:36 PM   #1750
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Re: Pokersnowie question

An interesting scenario compares to solver and snowie:
100% copy the preflop range from snowie to solver.
UTG open half pot and BTN 3bet 1 pot then UTG call;
Flop 222;
snowie suggest 100% check But solver suggest 100% donk

Postflop size setting: snowie recommend OOP 25% size on the flop so I give a 25% bet size in solver and give IP 100% bet size(also by snowie's recommend after OOP checked).

Does that mean exist multiple GTO solution in poker…(I don't know what happened...)
I can paste the solver file:
https://d.pr/FREE/hxqZj6

Last edited by jasonhau; 06-17-2018 at 07:47 PM.
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