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11-18-2013, 06:30 AM   #151
Cangurino
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RustyBrooks You always need a cost function, or some kind of score. In your example above the profit after some sample of hands IS your cost function. It doesn't have to be easily calculatable.
A score is just a means to an end. An oracle which ranks candidate solutions is sufficient. But as I said before, bankrolls after a sample serve as an oracle. I wouldn't call it a function though.

11-18-2013, 06:32 AM   #152
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by zachvac But if they can calculate an entire game tree they definitely have enough computing power to calculate a nemesis. In terms of space/time required a nemesis calculation takes a fraction that coming anywhere close to gto does.
They don't calculate an entire game tree.

 11-18-2013, 11:55 AM #153 bachfan adept   Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 888 Re: Pokersnowie question A few notes. 1 - It is possible to compute the maximum exploitability of a given computer strategy for a game like hold'em, but it is not easy. In the case of hu limit hold'em it has been done (see Johansen et. al - they have code for this, but it is resource intensive). In fact, in my experience, it is more resource intensive than the code to actually generate the AI in the first place (although I haven't tried too hard here to be fair). The variable bet sizes with nlhe makes it much harder. 2 - Even if you can't easily compute the max exploitability of a given huhu nlhe agent, it is often possible to generate some lower bounds (that is to say, this AI is exploitable for _at least_ XX bb/100). 3 - Even if you have the maximum exploitability numbers, it isn't at all clear how useful they are other than as a very rough comparison tool. It has been shown in the literature that you can have an agent X with lower max exploitability than agent Y that nonetheless loses to agent Y.
11-18-2013, 09:56 PM   #154
knircky
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RustyBrooks I suppose you never have to actually have all of the tree at once though, you can break it up into chunks. It's probably not so bad, I've never tried doing it for anything but simple limit games like limit 5 card draw HU.
So its possible to know what snowie has in every spot. So if you are a opponent and you play a hand against snowie, its very easy to optimize because you know snowies range 100% and what snowie will do. So now you just look for the best counter strategy.

This strategy will lead to perfect exploitation and consequently snowies response model must be quite well balanced. If you look at how snowie plays this is very apparent.

The QQ hand from above is very good example of how so many things snowie does seems unnatural and totally against what we have learned, however when you go thru it it starts to all make sense.

In our games QQ might not be a fold, however if an opponent were to try to exploit and good it make sense how qq is a fold.

Against snowie qq is definitely a fold.

 11-19-2013, 08:04 AM #155 SchDonk old hand     Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: metadating Posts: 1,610 Re: Pokersnowie question Yeah, if Snowie only cbets bottom set on this board, as you mentioned before, then QQ is obv a fold. However I doubt that cbetting only bottom set is "close to GTO".
11-20-2013, 12:49 PM   #156
Hans Gusen
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SchDonk Yeah, if Snowie only cbets bottom set on this board, as you mentioned before, then QQ is obv a fold. However I doubt that cbetting only bottom set is "close to GTO".
Blablablub. Can you prove that?

11-20-2013, 04:04 PM   #157
mme
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Hans Gusen Blablablub. Can you prove that?
i think i may be able to prove that it is correct that he is doubting that cBetting only bottom set+ is GTO. not sure if anyone is interested in this though ;-)

 11-20-2013, 04:28 PM #158 Hans Gusen centurion   Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 131 Re: Pokersnowie question Go ahead! Isn't it possible that he could be spreading FUD?
 11-20-2013, 06:33 PM #159 SchDonk old hand     Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: metadating Posts: 1,610 Re: Pokersnowie question What's FUD? ****-You-Display?
11-20-2013, 07:42 PM   #160
knircky
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mme i think i may be able to prove that it is correct that he is doubting that cBetting only bottom set+ is GTO. not sure if anyone is interested in this though ;-)
That would be interesting to see. It makes perfect sense to me after thinking about what snowie is doing. But of course i can't prove it. So seing how someone is going to prove this would be nice. Till then I will trust the machine over the rambling 2+2er on here.

Also snowie never would have bottom set in this spot (as preflop raiser) and has many situations where it checks 100% of its range on the flop.

11-20-2013, 11:42 PM   #161
RustyBrooks
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SchDonk What's FUD? ****-You-Display?
It's an acronym for "fear, uncertainty and doubt". It's usually applied when you think someone is stirring **** purely for the purpose of making people unsure of something.

11-21-2013, 07:26 AM   #162
SchDonk
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RustyBrooks It's an acronym for "fear, uncertainty and doubt". It's usually applied when you think someone is stirring **** purely for the purpose of making people unsure of something.
Thanks.

Quote:
 That would be interesting to see. It makes perfect sense to me after thinking about what snowie is doing. But of course i can't prove it. So seing how someone is going to prove this would be nice. Till then I will trust the machine over the rambling 2+2er on here. Also snowie never would have bottom set in this spot (as preflop raiser) and has many situations where it checks 100% of its range on the flop.
Yeah, but assuming it would have raised 22 preflop, then it would have cbet only this, right?
Lol, matchball!

11-21-2013, 04:09 PM   #163
zachvac
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by knircky That would be interesting to see. It makes perfect sense to me after thinking about what snowie is doing. But of course i can't prove it. So seing how someone is going to prove this would be nice. Till then I will trust the machine over the rambling 2+2er on here.
You're making the claim that since it's possible for snowie to be gto because it does something that gto does, it therefore is more likely to be gto. That's like the worst circular argument possible. Or maybe not so much circular but just dumb.

 11-21-2013, 05:02 PM #164 Cangurino Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The Circus Posts: 13,478 Re: Pokersnowie question knircky misunderstanding mme. zachvac misunderstanding knircky.
11-25-2013, 03:44 AM   #165
yegor
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by AshleyC Snowie was demo'd to me by one of the founders. In one hand example, after Hero opened KQo on the button and was 3 bet by the BB to 9x 100bbs effective the Snowie recommendation was to fold, with 4 betting the next best option followed by calling as worst option. In today's games I would against all but the biggest nits folding seems to be leaving money on the table.
wat

11-25-2013, 02:00 PM   #166
mme
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by yegor wat
hello, joshua.

 12-11-2013, 06:55 AM #167 cedricmagic journeyman   Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 219 Re: Pokersnowie question we (@moreev) have been testing the beta version of 'challenge pokersnowie' and the least we can say is that the HU snowie is very solid, balances it's range very well and can make some ballsy moves (from hero call to overbet on river) we came out really impressed with it
 12-13-2013, 10:02 AM #168 Qlka centurion     Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 111 Re: Pokersnowie question I think opposite, challenge proves that pokersnowie is weak. Just bet, overbet to contest the pot.
12-13-2013, 04:48 PM   #169
nikorrrrriko
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Qlka I think opposite, challenge proves that pokersnowie is weak. Just bet, overbet to contest the pot.
THIS, it really bluffs too much...took him a few buy in very easily

 12-15-2013, 03:37 PM #170 andyg2001 veteran   Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: UK Posts: 2,906 Re: Pokersnowie question I played a hand where the BTN opened 2.5 SB 3 bet 8, I 4 bet to 17.5, the BTN folded the SB shoved 100bb effective, and I called. Pokersnowie liked my cold 4 bet but thought I should have folded to the 5 bet. Says I lost 20.03bb in EV.
12-21-2013, 02:18 PM   #171
andyg2001
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by yegor wat
You need to make a min raise on the btn for it to give this advice. Snowie would not min raise, it likes to pot the btn. A 9bb 3 bet vs a btn min raise is a 1.56 pot 3 bet.

 12-22-2013, 09:45 PM #172 fontaine journeyman     Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Hamsterdam Posts: 224 Re: Pokersnowie question Lol I just finished a 2700 hands session of 6-max vs Pokersnowie Challenge. The snowie AI is very exploitable and FAR away from a GTO solution to poker. I won 1100 bb, with a 1550 bb positive redline. The chances of this being just variance is approximately 1% according to the Pokerdope variance calculator. The first couple of hundred hands Snowie did ok, but after making some adjustments I completely ran over the AI players.
 12-22-2013, 10:20 PM #173 Scootoo newbie   Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 34 Re: Pokersnowie question I'm having trouble importing hands after playing against pokersnowie, could it be my firewall? I've tried reinstalling it.
12-22-2013, 11:59 PM   #174
andyg2001
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Scootoo I'm having trouble importing hands after playing against pokersnowie, could it be my firewall? I've tried reinstalling it.
If your talking about importing hands into Pokersnowie it works better if they come direct from the poker site than from PT4 or HEM2.

12-23-2013, 07:09 AM   #175
Babarberousse
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
 Originally Posted by cedricmagic we (@moreev) have been testing the beta version of 'challenge pokersnowie' and the least we can say is that the HU snowie is very solid, balances it's range very well and can make some ballsy moves (from hero call to overbet on river) we came out really impressed with it
Really ???
I just downloaded the free trial today and played 600 aggromonkey hands HU at something like 300bb/100.
Sample size is ridiculous but so is the winrate (and I'm not gonna play 100k play money hands vs a nitfish anyway). I almost never used the fold button (not preflop anyway) as there was no point in folding when you could bluff later streets with any overcards/flush/straight cards.

I guess if you calculate the variance there's still something like 20% chances that I should lose on the long run but I don't see how that could happen with that much fold equity.

100bb deep I even think going AIPF every hand is profitable.

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