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Old 08-22-2017, 03:55 PM   #1476
au4all
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by fourdeucehigh View Post
I don't know if this has already been addressed, but many of the preflop ranges give a different % than when put into flopzilla. This seems to only be the case with multi way scenarios, as it's the first I've noticed, and I always ensure the frequencies match. I've attached a pic with an incorrect % that was the easiest to see and match up. Some ranges are missing over a whole percent, where snowie says 6.4% but the combos it gives only fills 5.34%. Below it's over by .34%

Any clue?
If your range in a particular spot is Ax and you give your opponents both have AA, are you playing 0% of hands or 14.9%? For the different purposes of Snowie and flopzilla, I think both are giving correct results.
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Old 08-22-2017, 05:24 PM   #1477
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Why does Snowie open from UTG to CO with a half pot raise, but on the button with a pot sized raise?
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Old 08-23-2017, 02:52 PM   #1478
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Why does Snowie open from UTG to CO with a half pot raise, but on the button with a pot sized raise?
It's complicated, and it varies from format to format and stacksizes, but it's partly to do with rake. (It likes the big size on the button at 200NL or lower, but in low rake environments - i.e. higher stakes - it prefers smaller sizes).
In late position there is apparently a higher EV for most hands by putting greater pressure on the blinds in order to not see a flop (where the raking happens), so it opens larger to increase the fold equity. In early position, it's more likely to get action, but bloating the pot OOP reduces the EV of the range, (e.g. if you get 3-bet when you're OOP, you have to fold pretty often) so it prefers to risk the minimum.
A similar thing happens post-flop, where OOP betting frequencies and sizes tend to be much lower than they are for the IP player. In short, you should prefer to play smaller pots when you don't have the positional advantage, and opening smaller achieves this aim.
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Old 08-24-2017, 01:59 PM   #1479
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Re: Pokersnowie question

^^

Thank you Arty ... what Snowie does just contradicts the wisdom fom Carroter's book (The Grinders Manual). He proposes the opposite: open 3x in EP because you have a tight range, and min-raise on the button, because you will be in position.

My Snowie subscription expired a few days ago. I took screenshots of all the important preflop ranges at the beginning of my subscription, but I always only did NL200 in my sims. I wish I had checked this earlier because I do find it interesting that with lower rake it would be more in line with Carroter
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Old 08-27-2017, 05:33 AM   #1480
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Re: Pokersnowie question

what is the best version of pokersnowie to get? Is it worth just paying the 20/month or can you get away with one of the cheaper ones?
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Old 08-27-2017, 06:52 AM   #1481
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Just getting into Snowie, I came over this scenario:
CO opens 2bb, BTN calls, SB Squeezes to 9bb, BB cold 4bets to 20, CO folds, BTN folds.
Now for SB Snowie suggets a potsized reraise with (simplified) QQ+, AK, AKs, A2s+.



BB now folds all AK, AKs, JJ, TT, etc, but those are ahead of SB potting range with pretty much all the suited Aces in there.




Why does it fold those, I don't get it
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Old 08-28-2017, 09:00 PM   #1482
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Something's gotta be wrong here:

1) I open 66 from SB. It says I need at least 33 to open, but 66 > 33 yet it suggests me to limp. Fine, whatever.



2) I get 3bet by the BB. Now it says that I have a "top notch hand" and that I should have 4bet. Yet apparently the hand was barely good enough to open raise to begin with?

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Old 08-29-2017, 04:07 AM   #1483
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Snowie is not perfect.
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Old 08-29-2017, 05:52 AM   #1484
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Leia Amidala View Post
i got a question about snowies call 5bet bvb.

When i let the sb open 3x and the bb 3bets pot and the sb 4bet pot. Then the bb 5bet shoves with: QQ+,AK+

But now snowie lets the sb call the shove with: QQ+,ATo+,A9s. I dont get that. Cause the sb needs to call 14.6 in order to win a pot of 40. So he needs 36.5% equity (actually more because of the rake). But when i fire up equitylab and see what range has this equity against the bb 5bet range i get the same range QQ+,AK+. ATo only has 30% so to me it seems a loosing call.

What am i missing?
The BB 5bet is probably assumed to be balance no? (and it probably is, because it will never only valuebet when it learned it'll get folds some%)
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Old 08-29-2017, 05:33 PM   #1485
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Fouracle View Post
1) I open 66 from SB. It says I need at least 33 to open, but 66 > 33 yet it suggests me to limp. Fine, whatever.
2) I get 3bet by the BB. Now it says that I have a "top notch hand" and that I should have 4bet. Yet apparently the hand was barely good enough to open raise to begin with?
The tips are sometimes contradictory/confusing. I think you got the weirdness in that hand because Snowie uses a lot of mixing in BvB, you used a raise-size that it doesn't think is optimal, and it doesn't have a perfect solution to every stack size.
For your situation, it thinks 66 maximises EV by limping rather than opening for a minraise+, but 33 does better as a raise, but that doesn't mean that 33 is a "better" hand. When you get 3-bet, it looks at its database and thinks "66 should 4b in this spot", so it's as if it's forgotten how you got in the spot in the first place. i.e. If you'd opened for a pot-sized 3x raise in the first place, then you'd get a different note when you flat the 4-bet. (Something like "Calling is better than folding, but you should 4-bet some weak hands too"). The quick tips (which were obviously written by a human) can't really account for all the intricacies of the strategy, or all the possible quirks of humans.
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Old 08-29-2017, 09:46 PM   #1486
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herrigel View Post
Just getting into Snowie, I came over this scenario:
CO opens 2bb, BTN calls, SB Squeezes to 9bb, BB cold 4bets to 20, CO folds, BTN folds.
Now for SB Snowie suggets a potsized reraise with (simplified) QQ+, AK, AKs, A2s+.



BB now folds all AK, AKs, JJ, TT, etc, but those are ahead of SB potting range with pretty much all the suited Aces in there.




Why does it fold those, I don't get it
You will find lots of spots like this after a 4 bet pre -- its just not correct play. Snowie does not look at specific equities to determine what to call with in these situation -- it can't be otherwise it wouldn't have so crazy ranges for both players.I believe it depends on having enough "training", and these spots come up so infrequently that the training team would have to have created a training set specifically for all these spots. But training is a silly way to determine the right action here anyway -- you should be using equities required versus ranges you anticipate. Snowie is nowhere close to balanced in these spots.

One way to "beat " snowie is to aggressively 5 bet, if that is your objective. Otherwise I find it excellent practice and warmup for situations up through 3 bet pre. Also you will find some of its river recommendations are incorrect and various others as reported in this thread.

I'm curious what others think of its BB recommendations pre. I played some 5/10 cash 250 BB deep and there were many pots were there were 3-4 players in the pot pre at $35 each and action was on me in the BB. Take a look at Snowie recommendations in that spot after setting up this Scenario. Pretty damn aggressive but I think they would work against most live fields. I will try them out...
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Old 08-31-2017, 05:09 AM   #1487
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Fouracle View Post
Something's gotta be wrong here:

1) I open 66 from SB. It says I need at least 33 to open, but 66 > 33 yet it suggests me to limp. Fine, whatever.



2) I get 3bet by the BB. Now it says that I have a "top notch hand" and that I should have 4bet. Yet apparently the hand was barely good enough to open raise to begin with?

Snowie uses mixed strategy on the SB that goes up to 60% opening limp/bet range so it's pure maths model of 3betting 66 after limping with it because 66 are behind only 77+ pair combos(48)...Snowie is great tool and before u criticise it better try to understand it's moves.

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Old 09-04-2017, 05:53 AM   #1488
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Re: Pokersnowie question

If keeping the pot small oop is good then why are we mostly 3betting from sb?
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Old 09-04-2017, 09:09 AM   #1489
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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If keeping the pot small oop is good then why are we mostly 3betting from sb?
Fold equity/not capping ourselves.
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Old 09-04-2017, 10:59 AM   #1490
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I found problems in the preflopadviser. People were saying snowie prefers 3.5 bb from the btn, but the preflopadviser says 0.5 pot. Also our range facing 3bets from the blinds involves cards we don't open e.g. utg calling 53s vs sb.

Last edited by ImmortalCultivator; 09-04-2017 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 09-08-2017, 08:06 PM   #1491
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herrigel View Post
Just getting into Snowie, I came over this scenario:
CO opens 2bb, BTN calls, SB Squeezes to 9bb, BB cold 4bets to 20, CO folds, BTN folds.
Now for SB Snowie suggets a potsized reraise with (simplified) QQ+, AK, AKs, A2s+.



BB now folds all AK, AKs, JJ, TT, etc, but those are ahead of SB potting range with pretty much all the suited Aces in there.




Why does it fold those, I don't get it
Is it because it has these weaker hands like A2s at a much lower frequency ? It's telling you to always reraise them now but if it doesn't have them very often in it's squeeze range then it's overall reraise range here won't be as weak as it looks
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Old 09-09-2017, 02:56 AM   #1492
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Re: Pokersnowie question

What is the common opinion of Snowie's 3bet bluffing strategy heads up? The hands it suggests are basically low suited aces, low-mid pairs and hands like J9s. All hands that have a ton of equity. Is there still an argument to say that it is better to occassionaly 3bet hands with no equity that cant call pre like 74o, J5o etc.? Or is snowies merged 3betting range superior?
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Old 09-09-2017, 04:18 AM   #1493
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by panetta23 View Post
What is the common opinion of Snowie's 3bet bluffing strategy heads up? The hands it suggests are basically low suited aces, low-mid pairs and hands like J9s. All hands that have a ton of equity. Is there still an argument to say that it is better to occassionaly 3bet hands with no equity that cant call pre like 74o, J5o etc.? Or is snowies merged 3betting range superior?
afaik all top players 3b polarised so idk why Snowie 3bets linearised. Don't think it's superior.
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Old 09-09-2017, 08:37 AM   #1494
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Much better to increase the pot with not-****ty hands OOP.
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:16 AM   #1495
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Equilibrium play can't include 3 betting 7-4 off.if we are trying to play every hand as profitably as possible against villain doing the same. Otherwise we are basically 3 betting 100% so villain would start 4 betting until we stop 3 betting 100%.

3 betting 7-4 off is an exploitive play and snowie is not making exploitive plays.
I think the lack of exploitive plays is why it doesn't feel "hard" to play against but that doesn't mean you are beating it.

I do wonder though that trying to do monte carlo inference on the game tree is basically an intractable problem so snowie has to have many plays that are not "correct" but I don't think we can know how far off these errors are.

Last edited by Soxxy; 09-09-2017 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 09-09-2017, 11:35 AM   #1496
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Re: Pokersnowie question

So I guess WCG was trying to exploit Jungleman by 3betting 84o in 2013 lul.
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Old 09-09-2017, 11:56 AM   #1497
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by panetta23 View Post
Is there still an argument to say that it is better to occassionaly 3bet hands with no equity that cant call pre like 74o, J5o etc.? Or is snowies merged 3betting range superior?
Assuming 100bb deep and pot sized opens and 3-bets, if the button only folds to a 3-bet about 43% of the time, you wouldn't do very well playing bloated pots OOP with 74o or J5o.
3-betting complete garbage is only going to work if the BTN folds to 3-bets at an exploitably high frequency, like perhaps was common in 2011. In today's games, most players have very small FOLD buttons in position pre-flop.
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Old 09-15-2017, 04:13 PM   #1498
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Re: Pokersnowie question

How good is Snowie at short stacked play compared to 100bb+? Can I effectively study MTT 30bb and under spots with it?
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Old 09-15-2017, 04:40 PM   #1499
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herrigel View Post
Just getting into Snowie, I came over this scenario:
CO opens 2bb, BTN calls, SB Squeezes to 9bb, BB cold 4bets to 20, CO folds, BTN folds.
Now for SB Snowie suggets a potsized reraise with (simplified) QQ+, AK, AKs, A2s+.



BB now folds all AK, AKs, JJ, TT, etc, but those are ahead of SB potting range with pretty much all the suited Aces in there.




Why does it fold those, I don't get it

I'm guessing snowie doesn't squeeze A2s+ even close to 100% frequency, so now it looks like you're 5 betting a lot more combos than you actually are

Edit: Go back and look at what hands you're squeezing with from the sb and you'll find your answer
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Old 09-15-2017, 04:48 PM   #1500
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I'm a bit confused with snowie's 4b/5b sizes. Do stack sizes not matter in these situations? I've seen situations where it becomes committed with a 4/5b bluff, I'd imagine a lot of these spots become -EV given it's going to end up allin every time villain doesn't fold

meh nvm I can see how it works, there may be slightly more fold equity on flops and maybe it can x/f on the worst of the worst? I can see how pot size raise could work out more than allins I guess, I've always considered them about the same though and snowie is going to have a wider range with the pot size than the allin.

Last edited by cashtorg; 09-15-2017 at 04:56 PM.
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