Snowie also says folding 22-55 is gto utg+1 w/ 100 bb. Could be right, idk. I'm used to playing those hands from EP w/ 100 bb.

I wonder how snowie changes its ranges according to its stack size. Will it want to fold 55 utg+1 when 200BB deep?

What ratings have people gotten from say 20k hand analysis from pokersnowie free trail? Be interesting to know.

Why would you do that?

its becaue playing thoe hand EP will just leave u OOP whole hand most likely having to fire with air to win a hand.

Because it is pointless to do that unless you want to help the company for free.

He also was and probably is in the top 5 of HUNL cash players for probably the longest any1 ever has been. Look at his PTR for FTP one time, and then think about how basically ALL of that was vs regs, not donks. IMO what he did at HUNL for a period was one of the sickest things done in online poker history. Yeah I think his opinion on the play of this bot at HUNL might mean something. And his merit being questioned by a has been midstakes HUSNG player is comical.

I've played probably 1k hands vs this thing, there would def be some questions I'd have for the creators, but overall, esp the preflop stuff, and esp at 6m PF stuff it seems like id be useful for me. But as for the rest I'm skeptical. One hand in particular that I remember, and I havent read a ton of this thread so maybe these sort of hands have been posted ad nauseam already. Snowie R the BN (playing HU) with QQ i flatted in BB with Ad4s, Flop comes Qxx ddd. I checked snowie CHECKED, turn was X (no d) I lead like 3/4 pot or something and snowie just CALLS. I think a 4th D fell on the river and I tried a river CR for some dumb reason and snowie just checked it down. I was just left with the thought of, really? Checking that flop and just flatting that turn lead is "GTO"?

People have given a lot of examples where snowie obviously plays pretty bad. Plus, lots of players have beaten it (though over rather small samples).

What noone has seen yet is a proof that snowie can beat any decent player. Actually, noone has a proof that snowie could beat any human player at all over a large sample as there hasn't been any serious match.

I think the problem is that it only calculates the EV for that particular situation on that particular street, without considering other important factors like implied odds, game flow dynamics, future streets,and opponent player type adjustments.

It also has certain tendancies that are somewhat easy to exploit. For instance in HU, on dry flops like J62 or TT4, its betting range is very polarized, as it will check behind with mediocre hands like 2nd pair or worse. When it bets it either has top pair or air, and check raising your entire range is profitable since the vast majority of the time it has air. This is especially true on paired boards, I generally check raise 100% and it never realizes its being taken advantage of. Then when I review the analysis, it tells me that my check raise with 75s on an AA3 should have been a fold 100% of the time, even though a check raise is profitable 100% of the time against snowie.

Also some of the recommendations it makes are questionable. For example playing HU:

1) I raise Q8 OTB, snowie calls, flop comes J64. I bet he c/r, I fold. It recommends calling. Not sure why it says call especially since there aren't very many semibluffs in his range, and my 8c blocks some them.

2)Snowie raises OTB I defend with Q9. Flop comes J86 I c/r. Snowie recommends calling 100%. Although I don't always c/r here, I think its a fine spot considering my pot equity+fold equity combined, as his range is extremely wide and I block many of the hands he can continue with against a c/r.

3) Snowie raises to 3BB OTB I defend with A5s. It recommends 3-betting 100%. Pretty meh if you ask me considering I'm OOP and no worse aces will call my 3-bet. This hand would rather see a flop, keep the pot small, and hope to stack him when he makes a worse flush.

4) Snowie raises OTB to 3BB, I fold J2s. It recommends calling. Meh

5) I raise J9o to 3BB OTB, Snowie 3-bets to 9BB, I fold. It recommends calling. Pretty meh considering snowie's 3-bet % isn't all that high.

I think these examples show how snowie only looks at individual EV decisions without considering how the entire hand might play out.

Let's go down the list...

No, any computer-generated strategy worth a !@#$ is going to consider the entire game tree. Implied odds are covered.

True. It appears that snowie attempts to approximate a nash equilibrium, so it would have no memory of any previous hand (or play).

No, see implied odds above.

True.

Does anyone that uses this program consequently help in it's production, regardless of whether or not you give direct feedback?

They get to see every hand you play against it and use the biggest winners' results to adjust it so in a way yes.

I see, uninstalling now. I mean I suck, but I don't wanna risk contributing. Thanks

I doubt making this software stronger will kill the games, worst it can do is make hard working regs stronger. Just because there's info available out there doesn't mean people with make use of it, otherwise every poker player would play well and every college student would get straight As.

I've played against bots before on real money tables. I don't really want to help in the development of a solid bot if it means I'll be playing it HU sometime in the future for real money

From what they have said the training is done on the internal server without looking at user results from the challenge. But they did make some sort of change to it's training in response to one user who took advantage of it's passive play vs. min bets.

Let me guess, you don't actually play poker at any reasonable stakes? Because any actual poker player realizes how ****ing ******ed this analogy is.

But I'll spell it out for you. When the level of college graduates rises, all of society benefits, even though people at similar skill levels won't be as high %-wise, but when the level of poker rises, no one benefits and with the rake and the fact that there is a solution, there will come a point where poker is literally unbeatable. Just like college though, the level of poker play will be higher, but whereas high levels of intelligence benefit society, high levels of poker play benefit absolutely no one. Curing cancer would make lives better for a ton of people. Solving poker would make lives better for exactly 0 people, unless it is kept private and you are the one who solved it.

I didn't say solving poker is good for the game, I only said that even if someone did solve it, which is unlikely to happen in the near future, it wouldn't kill the games since any dedicated and hard working grinder can already become very good with the info currently out. With my analogy I meant that anyone can get straight As by working hard enough but few people get straight As because few people are willing to work hard enough. Also, this bot plays like **** in many spots, I break even at 50NL and I crush it raising/3betting 100% of my hands pre and shoving most rivers. It has massive leaks that even I could figure out and I can't figure out how to exploit 50NL regs. In many spots it will fold 90%+ of its range to a half-pot bet so even by playing with two blank cards that always lose at showdown I could beat it.

If so many people ITT have worked out how to easily exploit Snowie by doing stuff like 100% min-3bet, or min-cbetting flops, why is it claimed that players that are playing Snowie strategy are beating 500nl Zoom? Surely their decent opponents there would have already started making these simple adjustments?!

Someone ITT said the 500NL Zoom players are actually losing money.

I'm a little surprised it can be exploited in this way, why do you think that is? Isn't snowie badically trying to call down at a frequency that makes you indifferent to bluffing? Are you saying basically his ratio of value vs air he is betting on the flop doesn't leave him enough bluff catchers to get to the river with?

From the little I know about snowie, I thought it basically would just call down based soley on where it is in its range. On some board textures in certain spots it doesn't have many hands that can take much heat, so it just badically says fu and calls down with a bunch of middle pair or whatever.

Playing with the help of Flopzilla so it does take me a bit of effort but I'm pretty sure I can beat it for over 1bb/hand over a large sample and would be willing to bet on it (let me know your odds if you're interested; I can do even better 200bb deep). This was done opening ATC, 3betting almost every open with ATC and 5betting every 4bet. I didn't go to showdown a single time. Sample size is small because it takes forever to put everything in Flopzilla every hand. I think even calling a 6bet with 27o OOP is profitable given how easy it is to make Snowie fold post flop.

Here's a good example:


Snowie folds 97% of it's cbetting range to a shove getting 2.65:1 on the call. I really hope Zoom 500 is that easy...

I agree 100% with what chinagambler says as it's basically the "strategy" I also used against snowie (though it doesn't even deserve to be called a strategy). Anyone who thinks snowie can play decent poker should try it themselves.

And noone has brought any proof that snowie has helped anyone improve, people seem just inclined to believe some random claim about mysterious montenegrin players.

Mods should probably go through an IP check with these people who keep making claims about snowie's strength as this is highly suspicious (none of them has brought any link to anything serious). It would be in snowie's interest to spread their false claims in the forums.
This thread has been going on for 350 posts and is one of the first link you find when you google "pokersnowie". If 2+2 doesn't want to give free advertisement to what seems to be mainly a scam (see all the "snowie approaches GTO" crap), then they should put a warning somewhere saying "be careful, this software is probably a scam".