I did a study of 4bet Pots and their Ranges, resprectivley the Ranges of the Playerpool. I reviewed in PT over 150 Hands that had a 4bet and went to Showdown on NL200 and NL500 (but mostly NL200), regardless if I was involved or not.

If i put away alle half Stacks/Shortstacks/Idiots, which leaves me with around 2/3 of the Hands, i came up with around 9% where i didn't see at least one of the two players having a Premium Hand (JJ-AA, AKs/AKo).

Of course, when i only look at Hands that went to SD there will be a lot of Premiums. But nevertheless i was somewhat suprised by the ~9%.

So I'm mostly asking players who are also playing on these levels, do you also think 4betting/4bet calling Ranges are not what a good balanced Range should look like? and they are actually more thighter among regs at these levels?

Before and after my Study i don't see ppl raising a BTN3bet from CO with the following Range:

well actually maybe raising (i do actually take notes if someone could 4bet/fold) but i guess most players here have a somewhat balanced raising range, but calling a CO4bet with that range?



Last but not least i would like to know, how and do you adjust? Or am i just overthinking it, and the 9% isnt that suprising? haha since ofc a lot of those Combos wouldn't make it to SD or go allin on an earlier street.

It's rarely correct to call a 100bb 5bet shove with less than a premium hand. You can bluff-shove, but you cannot bluff-call a shove.

Try separating hands that went all in pre, and hands that called the 4bet.

Sorry if i didn't explained myself correctly but thats exactly what I did i looked only at Hands that had a 4bet/call Preflop and went to Showdown - as i've said i discounted all the half-stacks/Shortstacks that went all-in with that 4bet preflop or on some other streets. So i had only hands left with at least 100BB Stacks and had a 4bet/call, went to the flop and to Showdown or respectivley went all-in postflop.

Ahh so preflop shoves are excluded then?

To clarify, 90/100 4b pots that went to showdown had one player holding JJ+, AK? That does seem off.

Yep pre shoves are excluded.

In around 90% of the Pots i reviewed both (!) Players had Premium Hands (JJ-AA or AKs/o) - i just reviewed my notes, in 3 Spots one Player had TT, since it was BvsB or BTN vs Blinds i counted them to the Premium Hands.

So in only 10% of the Hands at least one player showed a non Premium Hand like AJs, A5s, KJs, SCs or so on.

Perfectly explained! I haven't seen something more clear before!!

if you filter by showdown the results are always going to be heavily biased towards strong hands

Yeah i figrued, but no other way to see the hole cards - still i was a bit suprised by only ~10% - so you would say thats a quite normal rate in this case?

I would be very careful of trying to deviate hardcore preflop in 2021. It's not exactly hard for people to find correct ranges and if you're playing higher than 50NL you can be assured basically every reg has them. Just because you didn't see them showdown a bluff doesn't mean they don't have them.

If you do want to deviate I would only go as far as removing the 0ev hands. This is what is called exploiting at the margins. Meaning if you think you've found an area where people are deviating from optimal play you shift the 0ev mixed strategies to pure action one way or another. This will still allow you to exploit while at the same time not exposing yourself to too much risk if you are wrong.

Also you didn't mention if your filter includes all players or not. Of course recreationals are going to be extremely value heavy when they 4bet and you should adjust accordingly, but if you want accurate data against regs you need to make a reg only filter.

You are absolutley right with the correct ranges, another point why i started this topic, since its not hard to find balanced preflop ranges the ~9% were suprising.

The Problem is, since players in my handhistory are anonymous i can't really filter between regs and recs. I can, and did that as stated at the start, only go by stack size and some tilt/idiot moves like 100bb with T8s. So i only had reasonable 100bb vs 100bb spots.

So yeah, in the end after you guys comments, i guess the 9% isnt that suprising at all right? Since i cant filter between regs and only can look at Hands that went to SD?

honestly, the showdown hands are more for your viewing and trying to learn smth in an organic fashion rather than analyzing the stats
i.e. if you want to put in the work, remove the showdown filter and just take the 4b pots one by one and look at them til you think you've seen enough