Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Poker Theory General poker theory

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-06-2017, 04:58 PM   #1
IshipRolls
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 304
PIO play OOP

I'm really surprised at how passive PIO plays OOP - it flies in the face of everything I've learned. in COvBT situations, the highest Cbet% i can get PIO to commit to is 35%. I've even found situations where CO has an equity advantage, an EV advantage and a nut advantage - eg on a KsQs2h board and even here PIO only Cbets 29% of the time given the assumptions I've plugged in. It's not even check-raising much, only 2.6%.

This has surprised me, as everything you learn when you start out is about how you should play aggressive. You make it harder for your opponent to realise equity, give yourself another way to win pots, force more mistakes and make it difficult for villain to flat you wide preflop. Even with range advantages, PIO is checking OOP.

I'm not sure at 50NL and 100NL whether it's worth trying to implement this style and effectively having a Cbet OOP% of around 20% (or potentially going for 0%) or continuing with my current strategy, which people don't seem to be exploiting. It's a good opportunity to work out how to adjust after flatting IP vs villains who Cbet wide (normal amounts).

1. Should I be going for a 'normal' strategy or trying to get closer to PIO in these spots, checking frequently. IE, am I actually giving up a tonne of EV vs the player pool?

2. At what point do you think people start exploiting a 'wide' Cbet strategy (say 50%-60% OOP, which I thought was normal and good)?

3. Are good regulars/professional cash game players really playing this passive? I've never noticed the best players in the world failing to Cbet super frequently OOP.

I'm only looking from a cash game perspective - I can see why this wouldn't translate to tournaments where stacks are shorter so 3b value ranges are wider and calling ranges are more capped. It's just I'd recently started to feel really good about my Cbetting game and now PIO is telling me I'm a mile off.
IshipRolls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2017, 05:46 PM   #2
Brokenstars
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Brokenstars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Check out my PGC!!!
Posts: 9,702
Re: PIO play OOP

Allow it to c-bet a lower sizing.
Brokenstars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2017, 06:00 PM   #3
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: far too young and clever
Posts: 8,630
Re: PIO play OOP

I think it makes sense. co vs btn in a single raised pot should include lots of checking because the ranges are much wider than utg vs hj, for example, where I would cbet at a higher frequency than co vs btn.

That doesn't mean that I'm focusing on a specific frequency though. It's just that I have middle or bottom pair much more often co vs btn. Check please.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 12:30 AM   #4
yasuo
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 508
Re: PIO play OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
I think it makes sense. co vs btn in a single raised pot should include lots of checking because the ranges are much wider than utg vs hj, for example, where I would cbet at a higher frequency than co vs btn.

That doesn't mean that I'm focusing on a specific frequency though. It's just that I have middle or bottom pair much more often co vs btn. Check please.
for utg vs hj, doesn't hj have a very strong cold calling range meaning utg should check a lot?
yasuo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 01:39 AM   #5
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArtyMcFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 7,419
Re: PIO play OOP

Firstly, I'll say that I too was very surprised when I first started studying more advanced theory/strategy a few years ago, and learned how much of the "ABC" advice I'd been taught was basically just wrong. I was particularly excited when I first used Snowie, as its style of play was totally alien to me, and that led me to discover many improvements I could make to my game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IshipRolls View Post
2. At what point do you think people start exploiting a 'wide' Cbet strategy (say 50%-60% OOP, which I thought was normal and good)?
They don't need to exploit it. You're just hurting yourself by playing hands in a way that doesn't maximise their EV, and actually makes it easy for your opponents to respond correctly.

Just consider how easy it is to play when you have total air in position when you're facing a large c-bet. You fold, right? The decision is easy. But what about when villain checks to you? You actually have to think "Should I bluff here? What am I repping? Will I barrel the turn?". When the OOP player checks, it gives the player IP a chance to make a betting mistake with many weak hands. The IP player doesn't make as many calling mistakes with those bad hands if you bet into them.
FWIW, I don't even c-bet more than 50% overall, let alone OOP. Most players (especially in the micros) still c-bet OOP way more often (and with sizes that are too big) than they should in theory. You can do better than they do, by playing closer to optimally. C-bet OOP at a low frequency and for small sizes and you should see an improvement in your winrate. Bluff inducing and catching correctly is just as important as value-betting.
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 08:03 AM   #6
Soxxy
enthusiast
 
Soxxy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Vegas
Posts: 66
Re: PIO play OOP

Don't you have to factor in though if the villains you are playing against are not defending against your cbets enough then you are not wrong to be cbetting more than the equilibrium strategy?
Of course in that case you could be exploited but if villains are not adjusting then you are not wrong to be taking that line. If villain doesn't defend enough then the maximum exploitive strategy is to always cbet.

Last edited by Soxxy; 09-07-2017 at 08:09 AM.
Soxxy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 08:54 AM   #7
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: far too young and clever
Posts: 8,630
Re: PIO play OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuo View Post
for utg vs hj, doesn't hj have a very strong cold calling range meaning utg should check a lot?
I suppose this could be true, if the ranges assigned were sufficiently tight for the hj. I don't know what gto preflop ranges are, but here are my default ranges for online games:

utg open raise 3x: 55+, A2s+, ATo+, K9s+, KQo+, QTs+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s.

hj coldcall: 66-JJ, A8s-AJs, AQo, KJs+, QJs, JTs.

Maybe that's looser than what you were thinking, but I'm just trying to get the ball rolling here.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 10:28 AM   #8
Brokenstars
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Brokenstars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Check out my PGC!!!
Posts: 9,702
Re: PIO play OOP

A8s cc in MP seems like quite a mistake
Brokenstars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 10:30 AM   #9
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: far too young and clever
Posts: 8,630
Re: PIO play OOP

Yeah I was just thinking that after rereading my post. Any other hands I should drop?
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 10:39 AM   #10
ImmortalCultivator
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 71
Re: PIO play OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
FWIW, I don't even c-bet more than 50% overall, let alone OOP. Most players (especially in the micros) still c-bet OOP way more often (and with sizes that are too big) than they should in theory. You can do better than they do, by playing closer to optimally. C-bet OOP at a low frequency and for small sizes and you should see an improvement in your winrate. Bluff inducing and catching correctly is just as important as value-betting.
If villains are passive loose then checkin oop becomes bad. They will call all streets A high and check all air.
ImmortalCultivator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 11:05 AM   #11
Brokenstars
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Brokenstars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Check out my PGC!!!
Posts: 9,702
Re: PIO play OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
Yeah I was just thinking that after rereading my post. Any other hands I should drop?
I wouldn't call any of them with 100% frequency.
Play also changes with short stacks behind
Play also changes with UTG having very deep stack
Brokenstars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 11:17 AM   #12
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: far too young and clever
Posts: 8,630
Re: PIO play OOP

Vs loose passives out of position, the last thing I want to do is bloat a pot with hands like these:

100bb no limit holdem 4 handed:

I raise co, btn calls, blinds fold

flop a) A6s on Q63

flop b) JTs on KT2

flop c) K7s on 678

etc.

I think those are all check and draw at a good price or fold at a bad price heads up vs loose passives.

Quote:
They will call all streets A high and check all air.
I think what you're missing is that they'll also check those hands back and let your middle pair improve for free and get to showdown much cheaper than those same hands would cost vs a more aggressive opponent.

----

vs better players, you effective odds to get to showdown are much worse, so I'd check even better hands than those mentioned above.

I also check less potential bluffing hands vs the better players, particularly the weak draws in my range.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 11:21 AM   #13
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: far too young and clever
Posts: 8,630
Re: PIO play OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brokenstars View Post
I wouldn't call any of them with 100% frequency.
Play also changes with short stacks behind
Play also changes with UTG having very deep stack
Yeah if there are shorties waiting to jam behind us then we should be much tighter in the hj than I suggested.

If utg is deeper I expand the suited connectors as long as the game isn't too aggressive.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 01:15 PM   #14
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArtyMcFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 7,419
Re: PIO play OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalCultivator View Post
If villains are passive loose then checkin oop becomes bad. They will call all streets A high and check all air.
That may well be true, but since OP is using Pio to study, I presumed he already knew how to beat pond life. Tools like Pio are useful for learning ways to gain marginal edges against regs.
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 01:48 PM   #15
Brokenstars
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Brokenstars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Check out my PGC!!!
Posts: 9,702
Re: PIO play OOP

Also just 3bing and not calling is OK too
Brokenstars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2017, 02:26 PM   #16
Evoxgsr96
old hand
 
Evoxgsr96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Northern Lights
Posts: 1,915
Re: PIO play OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brokenstars View Post
Allow it to c-bet a lower sizing.
But we don't "theoretically" cbet a smallish 1/3 sizing on boards like KQ2r etc. ...?

---

OP i'm wondering same thing as you in regards to PFR play OOP in a SRP 100bb deep, and ik for sure it depends on villain's raising frequency that's why you can usually bet range vs most of population at micro stakes/loose passives etc.

I don't quite understand it either... cause friend told me on boards like T92r we should x most of range stuff like KK here and just be x-raising and x-calling a bunch more then we bet in theory, i think looking at what the nash raising frequency is in this spot then comparing it to raising frequency of pop/villain is the way to go but not sure...

Last edited by Evoxgsr96; 09-11-2017 at 02:37 PM.
Evoxgsr96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2017, 02:40 PM   #17
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArtyMcFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 7,419
Re: PIO play OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoxgsr96 View Post
But we don't cbet a smallish 1/3 sizing on boards like KQ2r etc. ...?
OOP in UTG vs CO, for example, I see no particular reason to bet big. It's a good flop for UTG's range, so he could bet at a pretty high frequency (in comparison to something like 875tt), but betting big would just fold out all the underpairs in villain's range. e.g. Versus a 1/2 pot bet, CO should probably fold jacks. Vs a 1/4p bet, he calls with JJ-99 at least. You don't really want villain folding JJ when you have KK/QQ/AA/KQ etc in your range.
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2017, 08:06 PM   #18
Brokenstars
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Brokenstars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Check out my PGC!!!
Posts: 9,702
Re: PIO play OOP

Betting small OOP is part of a good strategy.
Brokenstars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2017, 09:39 PM   #19
Evoxgsr96
old hand
 
Evoxgsr96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Northern Lights
Posts: 1,915
Re: PIO play OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brokenstars View Post
Betting small OOP is part of a good strategy.
...

Yeah i get it on boards like 866x or Axx, Qxx, 725r etc... and that's too general to say lol?

Also yeah arty 1/2 sizing+ on KQx or 2 broadways flop should be good, prolly larger vs fish
Evoxgsr96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2017, 12:24 PM   #20
phunkphish
veteran
 
phunkphish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,706
Re: PIO play OOP

Note: you can fix IP's strategy against a bet. This lets you adjust for opponents.
phunkphish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2017, 03:24 PM   #21
phunkphish
veteran
 
phunkphish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,706
Re: PIO play OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brokenstars View Post
Betting small OOP is part of a good strategy.
Don't know if I agree. Against good players, you are bloating the pot and just asking them to float you for cheap, where they will make your life miserable on future streets.

I'd rather employ a strategy of biggish bets and checks. Bigger bets give you more FE, force them to float for more, or to define their hands.
phunkphish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2017, 03:30 PM   #22
mrno1324
old hand
 
mrno1324's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 1,895
Re: PIO play OOP

Quote:
Bigger bets give you more FE
for a worse price

Quote:
force them to float for more
with stronger hands

Quote:
or to define their hands
mrno1324 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2017, 04:59 PM   #23
phunkphish
veteran
 
phunkphish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,706
Re: PIO play OOP

-With a small bet, you're only folding out their complete junk. that doesn't do much for us.

-They will have strong hands in their range regardless.

-Being able to define villains hand is good for us.
phunkphish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2017, 05:41 PM   #24
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: far too young and clever
Posts: 8,630
Re: PIO play OOP

Phunk, you're making coldcalling with suited connectors and pairs more profitable for the in position player with such a sizing strategy. Basically, I would use the following strategy vs you:

1) play bad preflop
2) get there
3) stack you

If you don't let me achieve goal (3) then I'm gonna raise your flop bets often with the many strong draws that I'll flop.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2017, 06:43 PM   #25
just_grindin
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,261
Re: PIO play OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
-With a small bet, you're only folding out their complete junk. that doesn't do much for us.
I don't think that's always true and would expect many more players to make a folding mistake vs a smaller sizing than a calling mistake vs a larger sizing.

Plus you screw yourself for multi street bluffs because of spr considerations on future streets and the composition of villain's range. Sorry if we were only talking river here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
-Being able to define villains hand is good for us.
But is the information worth the additional price you pay for it (rhetorical question)?
just_grindin is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online