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Old 05-01-2017, 11:13 AM   #26
blackspoker
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Do you think nil poker(played as holdem: nil holdem) will be more aggressive(not boring) when played as hyper-turbo(sng) or cashgame(20buy-in max) in comparison to same type of games in texas holdem(52-card deck). I think it would be more aggressive than played as holdem(52-card deck) as I believe that you can not play tight and win it(playing against average skilled poker players). There is too big gap when noone hits nothing on board, so good players(and everybody else too) will just need to bluff more, otherwise blinds will eat you. So, i believe this makes every other think go up(hero calling,…) and therefore i believe nil holdem(hyper-turbo and CG(20buy-in max))will be played more aggresive than same type of games played in texas holdem(52-card deck).

I know that a lot of people have said that nil poker would be boring to play(in majority type of poker games).I really appreciate all the constructive thoughts, but I do not believe it will be boring. It is really hard to predict. For those who think playing nil poker is going to be boring: Do you think it will be boring even in the case above? As i see really a lot of raising, hero calling, bluffing,..
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Old 05-01-2017, 11:28 AM   #27
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

People will just adjust. Long ago UltimateBet added a game called "Royal Holdem" which was played with a deck of 20 cards, just the broadway cards. So on the river, the worst possible hand is a broadway straight followed by full houses on up.

When it was first introduced there was a TON of action because everyone got dealt a "premium" hand every hand. It didn't take long for it to reach equilibrium where most people tightened up to more or less normal percentages and people stopped paying off with bad full houses, etc.

People's intuitive defintion of a "good hand" on various streets was wrong to start, but without even doing any math or study or work, they eventually settled on an intuitive hand value over time. The same will happen with your game. At first people will fold more because they'll hit less and there will possibly be more bluffing because of it (or at least, bluffing will be more successful which is a different kind of boring). But people will get used to it and call more lightly.

It doesn't really matter what cards are in your deck. Hands combined with boards create equity and once people know how to estimate equity they play accordingly.
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Old 05-01-2017, 12:23 PM   #28
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
People will just adjust. Long ago UltimateBet added a game called "Royal Holdem" which was played with a deck of 20 cards, just the broadway cards. So on the river, the worst possible hand is a broadway straight followed by full houses on up.

When it was first introduced there was a TON of action because everyone got dealt a "premium" hand every hand. It didn't take long for it to reach equilibrium where most people tightened up to more or less normal percentages and people stopped paying off with bad full houses, etc.

People's intuitive defintion of a "good hand" on various streets was wrong to start, but without even doing any math or study or work, they eventually settled on an intuitive hand value over time. The same will happen with your game. At first people will fold more because they'll hit less and there will possibly be more bluffing because of it (or at least, bluffing will be more successful which is a different kind of boring). But people will get used to it and call more lightly.

It doesn't really matter what cards are in your deck. Hands combined with boards create equity and once people know how to estimate equity they play accordingly.
This makes it sound like all full-ring games with a given betting structure will result in the same frequencies, if played optimally. E.g., UTG will open X% of the time, regardless of game. There will be an average of N players who make it past the first betting round, regardless of game. Etc.

I think the deck/hand combinations would change things.

Doesn't a game like PLO, played optimally, get to later betting rounds much more often than hold'em because equities run so close?
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:59 PM   #29
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

There is no need to invent any new poker game when you already have the great game of Pot Limit Omaha
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:54 AM   #30
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
People will just adjust. Long ago UltimateBet added a game called "Royal Holdem" which was played with a deck of 20 cards, just the broadway cards. So on the river, the worst possible hand is a broadway straight followed by full houses on up.

When it was first introduced there was a TON of action because everyone got dealt a "premium" hand every hand. It didn't take long for it to reach equilibrium where most people tightened up to more or less normal percentages and people stopped paying off with bad full houses, etc.

People's intuitive defintion of a "good hand" on various streets was wrong to start, but without even doing any math or study or work, they eventually settled on an intuitive hand value over time. The same will happen with your game. At first people will fold more because they'll hit less and there will possibly be more bluffing because of it (or at least, bluffing will be more successful which is a different kind of boring). But people will get used to it and call more lightly.

It doesn't really matter what cards are in your deck. Hands combined with boards create equity and once people know how to estimate equity they play accordingly.
Interesting post. Thank you for writting it.

If it is true what you have written:
this means more "air" calling on average at nil poker vs poker(52-card deck). Royal holdem has less cards than poker(52-card deck) so people(less experienced and more experienced) tighten up(like you mentioned meaning of "good hands"). Tighten up is easier to do than loosen up(raising, bluffing,...). While nil poker has more cards than poker, like you mentioned people should loosen up on average. Loosen up might means to play "crazy" raising poker, as the game evolves(it is easier to define perfect spot to tighten up, while loosen up can means just a lot of raising and calling,..). But yes this is really hard to predict.

I will make an online app in the near future, where people could play nil poker, so I guess time will tell.

I can not thank you enough for taking your time and writting your post.

Last edited by blackspoker; 05-03-2017 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:59 AM   #31
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketzeroes View Post
This makes it sound like all full-ring games with a given betting structure will result in the same frequencies, if played optimally. E.g., UTG will open X% of the time, regardless of game. There will be an average of N players who make it past the first betting round, regardless of game. Etc.

I think the deck/hand combinations would change things.

Doesn't a game like PLO, played optimally, get to later betting rounds much more often than hold'em because equities run so close?
Yes, you made some interesting points. I guess it is really hard to say. I will make a nil poker - online app in near future, so I guess we will see.

Thank you for taking your time while posting to this thread. It really means a lot to me.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:03 AM   #32
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroel View Post
There is no need to invent any new poker game when you already have the great game of Pot Limit Omaha
Yes, I understand what you are saying, but I think it is cool to come up with new poker variant.

Last edited by blackspoker; 05-03-2017 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:48 AM   #33
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

I would be much more interested in playing this game if there were only one or two, at most four, nil cards.

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Old 05-03-2017, 04:34 PM   #34
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroel View Post
There is no need to invent any new poker game when you already have the great game of Pot Limit Omaha
Yup
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:58 AM   #35
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

I think some tweaks to the deep+antes format could increase the longevity of NLHE:

a) minimum buyin of over 100bb, maybe 200bb, so 200-300bb tables for example.

This counters the fact that regs are increasingly finding simplified strategies that drastically decrease opponents' possible edges with 100bb. (For example: 3bet big from SB, then, given the right board, cbet big and then just overbet shove turn. This effectively negates the IP player's ability to use position to his advantage. It doesn't matter how good the IP player is at positional play, he won't find a big edge in this spot and won't find a way to make things difficult for the OOP player.)
(This point pre-supposes that smaller possible edges decrease game longevity. maybe this is debatable.)

b) ante structure that increases frequency of 3handed+ pots

This delays bots' effectiveness, as AI is still fairly far away from being good at 3handed pots from what i gather.

I think there are many different ways to do this. They all revolve around re-distributing ante money to incentivise a third player to see a flop or VPIP. I think some of the ways promote collusion, but hopefully some don't. Here are a couple i came up with:
variant 1): Players who see the flop don't have to pay an ante next hand. (or: the third, fourth etc. players to see the flop don't have to pay an ante next hand.)
variant 2): Antes go into a seperate pot that is only added to the main pot if 3+ players see the flop. If not, then it is added to the antes pot of the next hand, for which the same applies. (This has various fun up-sides, but also the down-side that one would have to solve the problem of what happens when a new player joins the table while there is an ante-pot. Maybe simply lock the table during hands where there is an ante pot, thus only letting a new player sit down for a hand directly after a 3handed+ flop.)

Last edited by Keruli; 05-04-2017 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 05-04-2017, 01:51 PM   #36
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keruli View Post
This delays bots' effectiveness, as AI is still fairly far away from being good at 3handed pots from what i gather.
It won't take more than a couple/few years for AI/bots to get very good multihanded, IMO - with the advancements in deep learning, etc.

The architecture of the bot's neural network(s) might be a little difficult to get right, but once you have something that's trainable, you should be able to create small populations of bots each playing against eachother for millions of hands, and constantly learning. Then maybe just mix their strategies together as the result bot... A bot like this might not be as good as humans at recognizing other humans' follies (especially since you're training the bots against other bots), and this is an important aspect of optimal multihanded play... But it should still be possible, IMO, to create a bot this way that wins pretty substantially multihanded against good players, and can easily be trained to play whichever game for whichever stakes you want it to. Maybe 5-6 years max til something like this exists and is better than humans.
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Old 05-04-2017, 02:08 PM   #37
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketzeroes View Post
It won't take more than a couple/few years for AI/bots to get very good multihanded, IMO - with the advancements in deep learning, etc.

The architecture of the bot's neural network(s) might be a little difficult to get right, but once you have something that's trainable, you should be able to create small populations of bots each playing against eachother for millions of hands, and constantly learning. Then maybe just mix their strategies together as the result bot... A bot like this might not be as good as humans at recognizing other humans' follies (especially since you're training the bots against other bots), and this is an important aspect of optimal multihanded play... But it should still be possible, IMO, to create a bot this way that wins pretty substantially multihanded against good players, and can easily be trained to play whichever game for whichever stakes you want it to. Maybe 5-6 years max til something like this exists and is better than humans.
i agree, albeit being less informed on the matter than you.

i was merely talking about increasing longevity though, maybe adding a few years.
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:37 AM   #38
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Slight change of the Nil Poker rules has been made

New Nil Poker combination: Nil Poker - Four (4) or more nil cards.

Nil Poker Hand Ranking:
… < Flush < Nil Poker < Full House < …

This change makes Nil Poker even better, more fun to play,.. Now I believe Nil Poker is the most perfect game on the planet (correlation between luck vs skills) and it is the most skill-based poker variant ever. Also, I am little closer to release some kind of on-line app, where people will be able to try Nil Poker.

Please feel free to share your opinions on Nil Poker.

Last edited by RustyBrooks; 06-18-2017 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:02 AM   #39
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Stop posting your videos this. This is not a place for your self promotion.
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:19 AM   #40
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
Stop posting your videos this. This is not a place for your self promotion.
Ok, I understand. Thank you for letting me know. I posted a video, because it is a lot easier to understand for everybody (poker pros and newbies) if they watch a video of rules. But I understand your concerns. I will never post a video here again.

I would like to hear your opinion on nil poker(after adding nil poker (combination)), if you are willing to write couple of sentences. Thanks anyway.
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Old 06-19-2017, 04:24 AM   #41
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Because video of nil poker was removed, the rules of nil poker(how to play) might not be understood correctly by some people, so here I am posting more detailed rules of nil poker.

How to play Nil Poker(rules):
Nil Poker has almost the same rules as poker (52-card deck). The only difference between playing poker (52-card deck) and Nil Poker is that there are 13 Nil Cards added to common deck of playing cards (52 cards) in Nil Poker (all together there is 65 cards; Nil Poker Playing Cards).

All 13 Nil Cards look the same. Nil Cards are meaningless cards. Nil Cards have no value (blank cards). Nil cards can not make any combination except from nil poker (4 or more nil cards). Nil Poker is more valuable than any flush and less valuable than fullhouse. Every card is better than Nil Card (2 high is more valuable than Nil Card). All the other rules (blinds, dealer, betting rounds,…) are the same as in poker (52-card deck).

You can play any poker variant with Nil Poker Playing Cards: Nil HoldŽem, Nil Omaha,…

Last edited by blackspoker; 06-19-2017 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 06-25-2017, 09:04 AM   #42
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Theory: PERSON WITH THE GREATEST POKER SKILLS IN THE WORLD IS NOT KNOWN TO PUBLIC

TRUE OR FALSE? Something to think about...

Poker(52-card deck) has really small advantage (good vs bad players) and huge variance (really huge; more than most people think).

For example, you play tournament (with a lot of players;poker(52-card deck));big buyin, so there will be probably a lot of good players. There will be really a lot of coinflip situations(50 vs 50) for every one(poker pros too), so what I am saying is that it is impossible to win tournament if you do not get super lucky overall. You will sooner or later need to have super amount of luck to finish in money(bad beats, cracks are included;even not getting cracked with for example kk vs a3, 2 times in a row preflop is around 50 percent chance to win both times with kk). So with normal amount of luck, you can not win tournament. All the poker pros(publicly known) were at some point of their career super lucky. They have had super lucky streak of tournaments at one point of career. Even if you play a lot of tournaments, it is more possible that you will lose all of your chips with bad beat, crack,…, than to possibly win tournament. Those things have probably happened to you(a lot of bad beats, cracks ,.. in a lot of tournaments, but it is actually normal for this things to happend(it takes really a lot of luck for those things to not happened) in poker(52-card deck).

It is allmost the same thing if we talk high stakes cashgames(very big buy-in;poker(52-card deck)). A lot of good players play those, but some are just out of planet lucky at least at one point of their career.

So, there will allways be players that will be super lucky(small percent) and players with »normal« amount of luck and players who are super unlucky(small percent).

Please do not understand me wrong. All the poker pro players(known in public) play very good poker, but there are a lot of people who play at least the same good poker too and they are not publicly known poker pros (and not making a lot of money, because they do not have super lucky streaks).

For example, some random person hits a lotto ticket, but that does not mean that he is professional lotto player or that he knows how to hit lotto with his skills. That just means that he just had a lot of luck.

To conclude all what I am saying: There is great possibility that a person with the greatest poker skills in the world is not known to public (with normal amount of luck you can not make it to the richies: 7 figures). I think it is pretty cool that we actually can find this person (possibly in the future). With Nil Poker...

Last edited by blackspoker; 06-25-2017 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:18 PM   #43
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

I see your other thread got closed. Honestly, I think the flak you're getting isn't because of your game idea, but the way you're marketing the game as, to paraphrase, "The most skill-based evarrrr say goodbye to variance!" Variance will decrease some but hopefully not by too much (for the reasons others gave). The value of an out in NLHE will decrease to 78% of what it was, and I'm not sure how drastic that will be.

Variance aside, your variant it will add some strategic twists to NLHE (and probably other variants) which I expect to be interesting and that's why I'm excited to try the game. Imho it would be better marketing to emphasize why the new game will be fun and interesting rather than the potential implications regarding skill and variance. I think your emphasis on the latter is what made people in the other thread tune out before giving the game a chance.

Anyway, my 17-rank deck arrived and I'll report ITT when I get a chance to try the game with people.
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Old 06-26-2017, 07:15 AM   #44
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Hello, moderators of 2plus2.

As my other thread about Nil Poker was closed(and this thread is not closed), I am asking you (moderators of 2plus2) if it is fine to discuss new poker variant(Nil Poker) here(in this thread)?

I am really glad some of people on this forum are helping me with possible Nil Poker variants, views on Nil Poker, possible GTO of Nil Poker and much more. I believe I have been very constructive too(contributing something new to this forum)- I believe some of my posts in this thread have good value about poker in general, too. I also believe it is pretty cool for some people to discuss new poker variant - Nil Poker(discovering and learning something new). I think it is pretty cool to discuss innovations in general.

To be really honest with everybody here: sure I »protected« this game, but for now there is no way to tell for sure, if I will be able to get any money out of it(even if Nil Poker will be played), as for there is currently not one poker game on planet that is »protected«. So, I might be doing it all for free(it is really important for me that I made something that some people will be considered fun and amazing to play; new possibilites to play poker).After this being said, I still think, it is cool to discuss all the possibilites about new poker variants in general(why are they good or bad, what are the changes all new poker variants bring,…).As for this is forum about poker(theories, future,opinions, variants…), I hope it is fine with everybody here to discuss everything about this game in this thread.

Anyway, I will respect what you moderators decide. Thank you.

Last edited by blackspoker; 06-26-2017 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 06-26-2017, 07:22 AM   #45
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by heehaww View Post
I see your other thread got closed. Honestly, I think the flak you're getting isn't because of your game idea, but the way you're marketing the game as, to paraphrase, "The most skill-based evarrrr say goodbye to variance!" Variance will decrease some but hopefully not by too much (for the reasons others gave). The value of an out in NLHE will decrease to 78% of what it was, and I'm not sure how drastic that will be.

Variance aside, your variant it will add some strategic twists to NLHE (and probably other variants) which I expect to be interesting and that's why I'm excited to try the game. Imho it would be better marketing to emphasize why the new game will be fun and interesting rather than the potential implications regarding skill and variance. I think your emphasis on the latter is what made people in the other thread tune out before giving the game a chance.

Anyway, my 17-rank deck arrived and I'll report ITT when I get a chance to try the game with people.
Hello, heehaww.

Thank you for your comment.
I really appreciate your every word you wrote(in other posts too). As usuall you have very good points.

Actually I did not look at this the matter from angle you wrote, but you have a very good point(what added value of this poker variant also is,..). Something to think about for sure.

GL with the game. Cheering for you
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Old 06-26-2017, 05:58 PM   #46
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

I don't think I closed any threads related to it.

Discussing it is fine. I think you do too much self-promoting, if you ask me. You don't need to include the name of the game 19 times in every post, we all know what you're talking about. It makes you sound like a huckster.
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Old 06-27-2017, 07:14 AM   #47
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
I don't think I closed any threads related to it.

Discussing it is fine. I think you do too much self-promoting, if you ask me. You don't need to include the name of the game 19 times in every post, we all know what you're talking about. It makes you sound like a huckster.
Hello, RustyBrooks.

Thank you for the answer and for clearing things regarding to my question.

I like your constructive comment. You have a good point(about advertising), too. Thank you for advice. Really appriciate your every post that you wrote here. This is one of many reasons why I came to this site, so that people who are involved in poker(more than I am), will tell me(give additional opinions) how to look at things (for example: how to look at the same thing from all the angles) and much more.
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Old 06-27-2017, 07:20 AM   #48
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Stats about this innovative poker variant:

- 20.87% of boards will contain exactly 2 N's.
- 4.59% of boards will contain exactly 3 N's.

In 9max:
- In 30.12% of hands, at least one player will be dealt NN.
- In 3.63% of hands, at least 2 players will.
- In 5.34% of hands, the board will have exactly 2 N's and at least one player will have NN.

I would like to thank heehaww(2plus2 member) for calculating the above stats more detailed than I did.
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Old 06-27-2017, 09:20 AM   #49
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Nil Poker with 52-card deck(regular card deck) - Another Nil Poker Variant

How to play Nil Poker (with 52-card deck):

Playing cards with rank from 2 to 4 (12 cards), have function of Nil Cards;all together there is 52 playing cards: playing cards with rank from 5 to Ace(40 cards) and 12 Nil Cards; with Nil Quads(Nil Poker) combination. Can be played as HoldŽem, Omaha,…

More about this nil poker variant: does not changes outcomes of known combinations a lot(flush actually becomes harded to hit,…), new ways to play poker, interesting twists to game, »crazy poker«, very fun to play, different strategies, everybody who owns regular poker deck can play it, this variant is not as skill-based as Nil Poker(65-card deck),……


I still think Nil Poker (with 65 cards; the most perfect poker game in my opinion) is the aeroplane vs other poker variants (walking by foot), but this variant is actually super fun to play in my opinion (a lot of twists,..).I believe If considering just fun factor, this game(Nil HoldŽem(52-card deck)) is more fun than regular holdem.

I actually did not try to play this variant yet, but this sounds super fun. I hope I did not make some bad asumptions(outs,..) of this variant (I did not analyze this Nil Poker variant as much as I did Nil Poker(65-card deck)).

Basically, there is a lot of new options to play poker(with nil poker rules),…

Also, I know I used too many times word Nil Poker, but it is the easiest way to explain the new Nil Poker variant(with 52-card deck) like this for me. And in my opinion it is the most understandable way, too.

Last edited by blackspoker; 06-27-2017 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 06-27-2017, 09:25 AM   #50
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

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I actually did not try to play this variant yet
lol
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