OK, so this occured to me twice yesterday, I had QQ at 25NL while in the blinds (once in each to be each) And was facing a raise and a 3b.

Now, If I see a tight player open utg and gets 3b or gets 3b by a nit I easily fold but once it's regs and co vs btn and sb vs btn kind of games I get uncomfortable.

This basically happens to me with JJ-QQ and AK. I feel like 4b/ folding is turning it into a bluff, flatting really caps our range to exactly JJ-QQ and AK and folding obv sucks too.

I say "feel" cause I get lost when it comes to computing here.

So, how should we examine ranges/ combos of diff villains to decide how to act here ?

4bet/fold is the worst line you can take.

Folding, flatting, and 4bet/gii are all acceptable. Like most preflop spots, at 100bb deep you can't just mathematically calculate the correct play, there's still too much room left postflop.

So what am I looking at basically when Im facing such a decision ? If I think Villain is 3b the initial raiser wide I can 4b for value but rarely some1 flats 4bets at 25nl and against a 5b shove range I dont think I fair well.

And when I flat my Im oop vs at least 1 villain, sometimes two, and my hand is pretty much face up (especially when I c/c non A or K flop).

What if we are 200 or 300 bb deep ? How do I approach this kind of spot theoritacally and mathematically, what stats should I be looking at and how do I construct my action ?

I think vs an average 3bet at 25NL a stackoff with QQ is slightly better than marginal, while a stackoff with AKo might be slightly bad. In either case, once you 4bet you're committed. Too many people have AK and QQ in their 5bet range to fold, if not, their 3bet range is probably tight enough that you shouldn't have been 4betting to begin with.

Kind of, but still plenty of players will flat AQs, KQs, 99, and sometimes even JTs or 67s. So your QQ is still somewhat disguised even if you personally don't make the mistake of playing those other weaker hands. Flatting allows villains to stay in with marginal holdings, second guess themselves, and get it in poorly on a variety flops. Is villain folding AJ or KJ on a JT3 flop in a 3bet flop? Usually not. Try bluffing a lot if you think otherwise.

You shouldn't really worry about it too much, but obviously the main stat you're looking at is 3bet%. Its rare you have the sample size for a reliable 5bet% stat. Generally you want your hand to have at least 50% equity against villain's range. With deeper stacks there's even more postflop play so its even more difficult to try and *calculate* a preflop strat.

I would use the 3b percentage of the reg in question. If they 3b normal or above normal, a shove is surely ok against that range. Some regs only 3b QQ+ and AK versus a UTG open.

Three ways it all depends on the frequency of the 3bettor and if they are simply trying to get heads up, or only 3b for value.


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This is quite a tough spot but you just think about the same things as always.

You assign the villains ranges, and then consider how those ranges will change based on your action. You also consider the chips you stand to win or lose... Every spot follows the same thought process. All Poker decisions are essentially the same.

If I we're you, in those low games, I would just fold this one a lot the time. Anytime you dont see a clearly profitable line just fold and you'll still make a killing. A 4bet doesn't look very nice here. We're oop so we dont really want the opponent/s to call and nor do we really want to see a 5bet. Dont get me wrong, there are loads of reasons that might lead to me to 4betting. I'd make that play most often against a couple of higher stakes regs. Folding or raising are the two standard lines here. There are very few reasons that would lead me to call. We'd be in a horrible spot post flop and will find ourselves setmining most the time. Off the top of my head the only time I can think I'd want to call is if the original raiser was likely to do a super squeeze, as that would be awesome!

Why? I like that line the most actually.

I think AK, QQ and JJ are way too high in our range to 4b/fold. If you dont want to gii with these then just flat call.

KQs or other hands that can not flat and play well when called, could be 4b/folded.




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I'd say QQ plays really well as well, when called. And I don't really like calling here oop with QQ or anything else. I'd just 4b or fold my whole range.

Ohhhh. Maybe I am misunderstanding.

When I read 4b/fold I read " 4bet raise, but fold if opponent 5b/jams."

You could either raise or fold your entire range and be good to go.

I just dont want to 4bet AK, QQ, and JJ but fold pre to a 5bet jam...


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Thanks guys really good info here to digest.

When we 4b , it's usually to around ~6$ , so 24bb. So if we get 1 caller pot becomes around 13$ , and we have 18$ behind. I still tend to think that if we get 5b shoved on we're screwed but maybe I'm being a nit in this spot.

I actually 5b shove sometimes as a bluff , not a defined range but situation dependent when me and villain have been 3b each other alot and I have a hand that can be a 4b bluff hand (small suited aces, KJs that kind of thing) dont know if it's any good but that's beside the point I guess.

Pretty sure Zkesic means the same thing.

The problem with 4 bet folding sometimes is how sure you have to be that a 5 bet shove is always AA/KK.

So according to my phone's equity calculator QQ has 18% equity preflop vs AA/KK and 56.3% equity vs AK.

(6/(6+X))*.18+(X/(6+X))*.563 >= 1/3

.18*6+.563*X >= 1/3*X + 2

.2297*X >= .92

X > = 4 (rounded from 4.005)

So if villain only has 4 combos (or 1/4 of the AK combos) when he shoves for a pot sized bet then you have a break even call. Note the equity is slightly different for just the AKS combos (54.1%) so if it was just those 4 combos you may need slightly more combos say 5. Plus you'll need probably 1 additional combo for rake so rounding up to 5 seems prudent.

Any way, as you can see it's hard to be so certain that villain NEVER has enough AK combos to make calling off with QQ profitable even if villain ONLY has AA/KK and AK in his range. Factor in JJ and QQ for chops and you start folding a large amount of equity.




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Actually, I meant to say that I'd 4bet QQ to like 22bb for value, because it plays well when called, and in my opinion opponent will be calling more often than shoving. However, once he shoves, I don't think average reg bluffs enough for our call to be +EV + I'd expect regs to call 4bet with AK here most of the time.

IMO, when facing a raise and a 3bet from CO, BTN or SB in front of us, it really depends on the exact 2 players we are talking about.

Vs. 2 players who I would generally think of as regs, I'm pretty much always cold 4bet/calling QQ+,AK (except if after I 4bet, they both get it all-in, then probably not with QQ or AK [but I don't at the moment recall that ever happening to me]). Basically, vs. someone with a high steal percentage and someone with a high 3bet vs. steal percentage, I'm cold 4bet/calling QQ+,AK like almost always; I'm also 4bet/folding some hands (maybe KQ or KJ). JJ, I think, is close what to do with it.

But if one of the two players is a nit or if the original raiser is a fish, then I may not do the above.




By the way, I'm assuming stack sizes of around 100 big blinds.

Might be true for some games, and is probably true for live games, but in my experience online regs don't like flatting at all, especially with AK. Its not even that wrong. If you have AK vs a 4bet and flop an ace or a king you don't get much value vs an underpair and still get crushed by an overpair or set. If you fold when you miss then you're throwing away all your equity vs a 4bet bluff. Its probably correct to flat pre sometimes and float flops and bluff-shove missed flops on occasion, but that's generally not something a 6-8 tabling reg wants to deal with.

Im 4 tabling and my focus is on getting better and making better decisions.

This thread also made me think of when I raise AK utg and get 3b by CO or BTN, I tend to flat alot as I keep thinking that by
4bing Im not getting better hands to fold or worse to call much. But then again I play it oop and pretty screwed when I miss.

Advice?

4-bet for the win. If you're 4-betting KK+ for value, 4-betting the blockers is a great way to balance your range. You should be very happy when villains fold, and still fairly confident in the unlikely event that they call. If they 5-bet jam, your blockers probably didn't work and you can fold AKo, but I think AKs should always be stacked off.
You're not really hoping to get called by worse when you 4-bet. You're hoping to pick up about 12bb with no flop, or get in a flip vs QQ with loads of dead money padding. If you could win 12bb every time you had AK UTG, you'd be a millionaire. Just calling the 3b OOP isn't going to make a you a millionaire. It's going to let hands like A5s/A4s take the pot away from you.

Tx arty