Two Plus Two Poker Forums Minimum defense frequency and bluffs
 User Name Remember Me? Password
 Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read TwoPlusTwo.com

 Notices

 Poker Theory General poker theory

 Thread Tools Display Modes
 07-26-2020, 07:50 AM #1 The_nutlow newbie   Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 24 Minimum defense frequency and bluffs I am a small stakes (tournament) player and recently been looking into more GTO stuff as I would like to improve my game. In my current stakes I think exploitative play is superior but I would like to have a solid GTO basic strategy to default to and diverted from based on situation. Also when I move up this becomes more important. One of the concepts I came across is minimal defence frequency. As far as I understand it, this just means you have to continue/call with a x percentage of your range based on betsize otherwise opponents bluffs show a profit. In practice I kinda struggle with it though. Suppose we end up on some arbitrary river and opponent bets half pot. We have to call/raise with 2/3 of our range. Say our range consists of like 40 percent missed draws, a lot of ace highs and some pairs. If we have to defend 2/3 this would mean we have to call/raise ALL ace highs and pairs and even bluff raise some air (if we are capped somehow this might be an issue to balance). I know this is a hypothetical spot, but I am confused if I should include missed draws and things that have zero showdown in my total range or only look at bluffcatchers+value and call 67 percent of that. I think it is about your entire range so missed draws definitely count, but in our hypothetical spot I feel like we end up calling way to much. I mean what if 50 percent of our range is draws and opponent bet 1/3 pot? I hope you can help me with this! EDIT: Generally when explained it is assumed opponents have purely air and value, so that would mean our Ace highs should always be good, in practice this is where I struggle, if 50 percent of our range is missed non ace high draws we have an issue I would think. Or does that mean we are unbalance somewhere else in the hand and is this just a result (and thus kinda hypothetical)? Last edited by The_nutlow; 07-26-2020 at 07:58 AM.
 07-26-2020, 01:09 PM #2 Lezaleas journeyman   Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 242 Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs The simplest way to understand mdf is that you are trying to make villain worst (worst mostly means highest showdown value) bluff indifferent to bluffing. So if any hand you have doesn't beat villain's worst bluff, that hand probably doesn't "count" towards mdf. This means that you only apply mdf to your catcher/value region. But just because a hand is a missed draw it doesn't mean it has no showdown value, if your opponent worst bluff is J hi, then your Q hi is a bluffcatcher in this situation. This even shows up in BTN vs BB cbet flop, where the BB tends to overfold a lot partly due to his worst hands having low equity against the BTN bluffing region.
07-30-2020, 08:03 AM   #3
R1zxo
enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 69
Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs

Quote:
 Originally Posted by The_nutlow I am a small stakes (tournament) player and recently been looking into more GTO stuff as I would like to improve my game. In my current stakes I think exploitative play is superior but I would like to have a solid GTO basic strategy to default to and diverted from based on situation. Also when I move up this becomes more important. One of the concepts I came across is minimal defence frequency. As far as I understand it, this just means you have to continue/call with a x percentage of your range based on betsize otherwise opponents bluffs show a profit. In practice I kinda struggle with it though. Suppose we end up on some arbitrary river and opponent bets half pot. We have to call/raise with 2/3 of our range. Say our range consists of like 40 percent missed draws, a lot of ace highs and some pairs. If we have to defend 2/3 this would mean we have to call/raise ALL ace highs and pairs and even bluff raise some air (if we are capped somehow this might be an issue to balance). I know this is a hypothetical spot, but I am confused if I should include missed draws and things that have zero showdown in my total range or only look at bluffcatchers+value and call 67 percent of that. I think it is about your entire range so missed draws definitely count, but in our hypothetical spot I feel like we end up calling way to much. I mean what if 50 percent of our range is draws and opponent bet 1/3 pot? I hope you can help me with this! EDIT: Generally when explained it is assumed opponents have purely air and value, so that would mean our Ace highs should always be good, in practice this is where I struggle, if 50 percent of our range is missed non ace high draws we have an issue I would think. Or does that mean we are unbalance somewhere else in the hand and is this just a result (and thus kinda hypothetical)?
a good way to study this is by using Equity buckets. for example your facing a flop c-bet. your range Equity bucket is 4% strong hands(75%+) 36% good hands (50 - 75%) 20% weak hands (33- 50%) and the 40% air( less than 33%). if you face a pot sized bet your MDF is 50% and you need 33% equity to call. so if you visualise your range, you have to fold all your air since you haven't got the right price to call then. even though with your weak hands you have the right equity, you will need to fold half of them to keep within MDF. a good way to balance this is maybe fold the weak holdings without a back door and call the ones that do for example. even though you will never be able to know your exact equity vs a bet since you don't know your opponents betting range however if you study with equity calculators you can get a good estimate .

07-30-2020, 08:09 AM   #4
R1zxo
enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 69
Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs

Quote:
 Originally Posted by The_nutlow I am a small stakes (tournament) player and recently been looking into more GTO stuff as I would like to improve my game. In my current stakes I think exploitative play is superior but I would like to have a solid GTO basic strategy to default to and diverted from based on situation. Also when I move up this becomes more important. One of the concepts I came across is minimal defence frequency. As far as I understand it, this just means you have to continue/call with a x percentage of your range based on betsize otherwise opponents bluffs show a profit. In practice I kinda struggle with it though. Suppose we end up on some arbitrary river and opponent bets half pot. We have to call/raise with 2/3 of our range. Say our range consists of like 40 percent missed draws, a lot of ace highs and some pairs. If we have to defend 2/3 this would mean we have to call/raise ALL ace highs and pairs and even bluff raise some air (if we are capped somehow this might be an issue to balance). I know this is a hypothetical spot, but I am confused if I should include missed draws and things that have zero showdown in my total range or only look at bluffcatchers+value and call 67 percent of that. I think it is about your entire range so missed draws definitely count, but in our hypothetical spot I feel like we end up calling way to much. I mean what if 50 percent of our range is draws and opponent bet 1/3 pot? I hope you can help me with this! EDIT: Generally when explained it is assumed opponents have purely air and value, so that would mean our Ace highs should always be good, in practice this is where I struggle, if 50 percent of our range is missed non ace high draws we have an issue I would think. Or does that mean we are unbalance somewhere else in the hand and is this just a result (and thus kinda hypothetical)?
also one more thing. your equity of your hand is way more important than MDF. if you have a hand that has 0% equity you shouldn't call it to try make the MDF. if you look at GTO solvers they overfold quite often on certain flops due to not having enough equity.if your range is 60 air, you should fold 60% of your range to even a tiny bet.

 08-03-2020, 09:13 PM #6 Lezaleas journeyman   Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 242 Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs If you have low suited connectors they probably don't "count" towards mdf in that situation. You should answer question like these with toy games and it's easier to see. River and we face a pot bet, villain's range is A(2)/Q(1), hero's range is K/J. The solution is we defend MDF of our K region and we always fold J. The J don't count towards MDF here. This tends to work this way in real poker a lot, you can even see it in the flop against a cbet (so in your example your opponents are actually right to overfold because they have plenty of total airballs)
08-04-2020, 02:01 PM   #8
Lezaleas
journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 242
Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs

Quote:
You still wouldn't call 2-8 because you are way behind his bluffing region, just beating 1 combo out of 11 wouldn't make you want to defend. Yes, villain's getting more than his fair share of the pot this way, and no you are not getting exploited because there's nothing you can do to solve it. Kinda explains why small range cbets are strong on the flop with a range advantage

 08-04-2020, 10:42 PM #9 tombos21 grinder     Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 546 Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs Pot Odds >> MDF when it comes to calling river bets. When facing a river bet, you can only call with hands that have correct pot odds to call. You don't knowingly make unprofitable calls just to remain exploitable; that's like shooting yourself in the foot to prevent someone from stealing your shoe. The way to solve your toy game is straightforward. Facing a pot sized bet, EVERY hand you call with needs at least 33.3% equity to call (pot odds). In this case, you would fold all of your 2-8 because they only have 25% equity, and are therefor a losing call. Even solvers behave this way.
 08-05-2020, 08:32 AM #10 The_nutlow newbie   Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 24 Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs Thanks for the responses! But in that case when is MDF really relevant? In spots before the river equity, position and range (dis)advantage change it a lot if I understand correctly. On the river it gives you suboptimal results. Does that mean it is just a flawed concept? @tombos21, this makes a lot of sense. It is kinda what I do now, if a spot is unclear to me on the river I usually try to estimate bluffing combo's versus value combos and see if I beat enough bluffing ones to profitably call with my specific hand. I think there is nothing wrong with this and almost always superior (I am definitely dropping the MDF concept for in game situations). I am just trying to understand the GTO side of things. Because I think to check if your specific hand is profitable to call is not always correct either. Suppose we are on a river where we only have J, opponents has A, K, Q in his full pot betting range. We clearly fold. Now our opponent starts bluffing 9 in equal amounts to the A, K, Q. We win 25 percent of the time, we need 33 percent so we fold based on pot odds. His 9 has 100 percent fold equity and is crazy profitable. Aren't we getting exploited here and shouldn't we call partials of J here to counter that? I am not at all sure about it, it might have to do with his range being unbalanced and value heavy (he clearly has to little bluffs right? For a potsized bet he needs 1 bluff for every 2 value, not 1 for every 3 right?)
08-05-2020, 12:49 PM   #11
tombos21
grinder

Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 546
Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs

Quote:
 Originally Posted by The_nutlow Suppose we are on a river where we only have J, opponents has A, K, Q in his full pot betting range. We clearly fold. Now our opponent starts bluffing 9 in equal amounts to the A, K, Q. We win 25 percent of the time, we need 33 percent so we fold based on pot odds. His 9 has 100 percent fold equity and is crazy profitable. Aren't we getting exploited here and shouldn't we call partials of J here to counter that? I'm not sure about it, it might have to do with his range being unbalanced and value heavy (he clearly has to little bluffs right? For a potsized bet he needs 1 bluff for every 2 value, not 1 for every 3 right?)
In this example, we would end up folding 100%. Yes you are getting exploited. No, there's nothing you can do about it. In this hypothetical your just gonna get run over.

Let's use the same example but change the size of the bet to half pot. This changes your pot odds to 25%. So it's a break-even call. This is the scenario where you would use MDF in theory. You would call with your break-even bluff catchers just enough to stop villain from exploiting you.

 08-06-2020, 07:56 AM #12 The_nutlow newbie   Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 24 Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs Hmm okay. I still find it very confusing. Because now it seems MDF is a much more niche thing then I assumed it would be. I am gonna read up on it some more in the future, but for now I will definitely use pot odds. Thanks for the help fellow 2+2'ers! If anyone has a good suggestion about GTO study material (preferable a good book/video series), let me know. I would like to get some more acquainted with it.
 08-07-2020, 06:46 AM #13 Shipnickle adept     Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: Shipping nickles in 2020 [PG&C] Posts: 1,176 Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs The problem with only thinking about pot odds in a spot where villain bets with a polarized range OTR is that you are basically calling every single one of your bluffcatchers when you figure out you beat say 33% of villains betting range, which would be your potodds vs a pot size bet. Thinking in terms of MDF is a bit better because you make sure you don't call all your bluffcatchers and look to call with the the best ones that blocks value or unblocks bluffs. Obviously blockers/unblockers will affect how much of villains range you beat but it's harder to figure out in-game. It's easier to know why some combos are better bluffcatchers than others and pick the best ones.
08-07-2020, 08:46 PM   #14
mediacalc
journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 274
Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs

Quote:
 Originally Posted by R1zxo a good way to study this is by using Equity buckets. for example your facing a flop c-bet. your range Equity bucket is 4% strong hands(75%+) 36% good hands (50 - 75%) 20% weak hands (33- 50%) and the 40% air( less than 33%). if you face a pot sized bet your MDF is 50% and you need 33% equity to call. so if you visualise your range, you have to fold all your air since you haven't got the right price to call then. even though with your weak hands you have the right equity, you will need to fold half of them to keep within MDF. a good way to balance this is maybe fold the weak holdings without a back door and call the ones that do for example. even though you will never be able to know your exact equity vs a bet since you don't know your opponents betting range however if you study with equity calculators you can get a good estimate .
What do you use to study with equity buckets?

08-09-2020, 05:55 PM   #15
R1zxo
enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 69
Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mediacalc What do you use to study with equity buckets?
The book modern poker theory , explains it all there

 08-18-2020, 04:13 AM #16 The_nutlow newbie   Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 24 Re: Minimum defense frequency and bluffs Thank you all for the replies. MDF is still a bit confusing to me but the general idea is clear to me now, thanks! If I have some further questions/examples I will post them (possibly in a new thread).

 Thread Tools Display Modes Linear Mode

 Posting Rules You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Rules
 Forum Jump User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home Links to Popular Forums     News, Views, and Gossip     Beginners Questions     Marketplace & Staking     Casino & Cardroom Poker     Internet Poker     NL Strategy Forums     Poker Goals & Challenges     Las Vegas Lifestyle     Sporting Events     Other Other Topics Two Plus Two     About the Forums     Two Plus Two Magazine Forum     The Best of Two Plus Two Marketplace & Staking     Commercial Marketplace     General Marketplace     Staking - Offering Stakes     Staking         Staking - Offering Stakes         Staking - Seeking Stakes         Staking - Selling Shares - Online         Staking - Selling Shares - Live         Staking Rails         Transaction Feedback & Disputes     Transaction Feedback & Disputes Coaching & Training     Coaching Advice     Cash Game Poker Coach Listings     Tournament/SNG Poker Coach Listings Poker News & Discussion     News, Views, and Gossip     Poker Goals & Challenges     Poker Beats, Brags, and Variance     That's What She Said!     Legislation for Poker & Income Taxes for Poker Players     Twitch - Watch and Discuss Live Online Poker     Televised Poker General Poker Strategy     Beginners Questions     Books and Publications     Poker Tells/Behavior, hosted by: Zachary Elwood     Poker Theory     Psychology No Limit Hold'em Strategy     Medium-High Stakes PL/NL     Micro-Small Stakes PL/NL     Medium-High Stakes Full Ring     Micro-Small Stakes Full Ring     Heads Up NL     Live Low-stakes NL Limit Texas Hold'em Strategy     Mid-High Stakes Limit     Micro-Small Stakes Limit Tournament Poker Strategy     STT Strategy     Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos     Mid-High Stakes MTT     Small Stakes MTT     MTT Community     Tournament Events Other Poker Strategy     High Stakes PL Omaha     Small Stakes PL Omaha     Omaha/8     Stud     Draw and Other Poker Live Poker     Casino & Cardroom Poker         Venues & Communities         Regional Communities     Venues & Communities     Tournament Events         WPT.com     Home Poker     Cash Strategy     Tournament Strategy Internet Poker     Internet Poker         Global Poker         BetOnline.ag Online Poker     Commercial Software     Software         Commercial Software         Free Software General Gambling     Backgammon Forum hosted by Bill Robertie.     Probability     Sports Betting     Other Gambling Games 2+2 Communities     Other Other Topics         OOTV         Game of Thrones     The Lounge: Discussion+Review     EDF     Las Vegas Lifestyle     BBV4Life         omg omg omg     House of Blogs Sports and Games     Sporting Events         Single-Team Season Threads         Fantasy Sports     Fantasy Sports         Sporting Events     Wrestling     Golf     Chess and Other Board Games     Video Games         League of Legends         Hearthstone     Puzzles and Other Games Other Topics     Politics and Society     History     Business, Finance, and Investing     Science, Math, and Philosophy     Religion, God, and Theology     Travel     Health and Fitness     Laughs or Links!     Computer Technical Help     Programming

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:53 PM.

 Contact Us - Two Plus Two Publishing LLC - Privacy Statement - Top