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Old 01-26-2019, 02:17 AM   #1
WHATSMYNAMEHUH
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MDF vs pf 3b

Personally, I'm using the TGM's recommended MDF of ~45%, wc means I'm folding ~55% (villain's actual RFE for his 3b is ~68%, but author reduces it to ~55% for the fact that villain has postflop equity). Obv, my MDF consists of flatting, 4b value, and 4b bluffs.

What portion (% wise) of your overall opening range do you defend vs 3b or you think is an optimal% defend?

Another concern of mine is when we get 3b by a known fish or tight players w/ non-optimal 3b freq (on a nitty 3b freq side) but using a standard 3b sizing (so their RFE is equal to decent players). Bc if we exploit them by overfolding, aren't they also automatically exploiting us? How should I think about this spot?

Thanks
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Old 01-26-2019, 06:25 PM   #2
ArtyMcFly
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Re: MDF vs pf 3b

There's been hundreds of threads on this issue, but my feeling is well known: MDF has very little utility pre-flop or even on the flop.
You should continue with certain hands vs a 3-bet simply because calling (or 4-betting) is more profitable than folding.
Your aim isn't to prevent villain making money with air (because most villains aren't 3-betting total air) or making him "indifferent" with bluffs (a good calling range will automatically reduce the profitability of his weakest hands to <1bb). Your aim is to maximize your own EV, given the range you think villain is playing. He'll win a bigger share of the pot (or win the pot more often), because he has a stronger range, but many of your calling hands will win often enough.
If he only 3-bets KK+, then obviously you're not gonna do well flatting AK or QQ (never mind the weaker stuff), but if he's 3-betting 10-15% of hands, then loads of pairs, suited Broadways and suited connectors will have the right price and equity to call. After all, if villain makes a pot-sized 3-bet, you only need to win a third of the time for calling to be better than folding. There are a LOT of hands that will win at least a third of time vs a typical 3-bet range.
In short, I wouldn't do too much thinking about indifference or frequencies. Just consider your equity vs villain's range, and whether you'll be able to realize it.
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Old 01-26-2019, 08:44 PM   #3
browni3141
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Re: MDF vs pf 3b

Preflop MDF would only apply if all remaining players are playing 4-bet or fold, and it applies to all players collectively. Most strategies recommend having a flatting range, even OOP, so I’d just not think about MDF much preflop.
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Old 01-26-2019, 10:19 PM   #4
WHATSMYNAMEHUH
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Re: MDF vs pf 3b

ok that makes a lot of sense, thanks guys ; )

edit: what's the common foldto3b% for a solid reg?
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Old 01-27-2019, 12:49 PM   #5
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Re: MDF vs pf 3b

It varies a lot, especially from one stake level to another. At 2NLz, there are decent winners that fold to 3-bets more than 60% of the time. Higher up, the number is probably lower than 50% for most winners.
FWIW, I had a quick look at Snowie's 100NL BTN v SB 3b strat last night, and it has the BTN continuing (with a call or a 4-bet) around 57% of the time. (i.e. it only folds 43% when faced by a pot-sized 3-bet in that particular positional battle. It continues a fair bit more often than the basic MDF number when in position. When it's UTG v MP3b, the number is completely different.)
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:01 PM   #6
tuccotrading
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Re: MDF vs pf 3b

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
It varies a lot, especially from one stake level to another. At 2NLz, there are decent winners that fold to 3-bets more than 60% of the time. Higher up, the number is probably lower than 50% for most winners.
FWIW, I had a quick look at Snowie's 100NL BTN v SB 3b strat last night, and it has the BTN continuing (with a call or a 4-bet) around 57% of the time. (i.e. it only folds 43% when faced by a pot-sized 3-bet in that particular positional battle. It continues a fair bit more often than the basic MDF number when in position. When it's UTG v MP3b, the number is completely different.)

What is that UTG number?
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Old 03-14-2019, 03:51 PM   #7
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Re: MDF vs pf 3b

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Originally Posted by tuccotrading View Post
What is that UTG number?
UTG vs an MP 3-bet?
Snowie opens around 15.2% UTG at 100NL (about 202 combos), but only continues (inc 4-bets) with about 76 combos (77+,ATs+,AKo) vs a 3-bet by MP. So it folds to 3-bets in that instance about 126/202 = 62%. Recall that MP's 3-betting range vs UTG is exceptionally strong, because he's 'saying' that not only can he beat UTG, he's also not too worried about 4 other players waking up with a better hand. Ergo, UTG has to give MP more credit for a hand, and can continue only with a very strong range. I think the folding frequency is a fair bit lower in UTG v BTN 3-bet, because the latter's 3b range is weaker/wider than MP's would be.
Being OOP means it continues less often than it would when IP vs a 3-bet. (Because it's easier to realize equity in position).
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