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Old 09-05-2017, 01:12 PM   #1
leaf3128
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If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

Example:

I opened with 9h10h on the co and the button light 3 bets me.

I will call some 3 bets with suited connectors.

The flop comes As9s7h

I check

My opponent bets under half pot, which based on how he was playing made me think he doesn't have an ace.

Turn 2h

I checked in hopes of check raising my pair and flush draw as a semi bluff.
He checked, so I put him on pocket kings or queens.

The river came 6s

I bet 3/4 pot and get instantly called by pocket kings.

When I read my opponent's hand properly I still have difficulties bluffing them off the hand when I know all the scare cards are on the board.
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Old 09-05-2017, 01:30 PM   #2
thegibson
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

I think your overlooking your own image. Also stake plays a big part too

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Old 09-05-2017, 02:15 PM   #3
Tutejszy
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

dont bluff with bluffcatchers, they are meant for catching bluffs, not bluffing
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Old 09-06-2017, 03:37 AM   #4
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

If you don't think he has an ace on the flop, then you could consider check-raising the flop, partly for protection and partly as a semi-bluff that you will often barrel. A two-street bluff will generally be more successful than a random one-street river lead. (When villain checks back the turn, he often has SDV and is calling most river bets, so bluffing into him is unlikely to work).
Raising the flop also prevents villain from binking a higher pair with something like KQ/QJs (unless in spades), since he pretty much has to fold all unpaired hands to a check-raise on that flop, as you'd be repping sets (99/77).

All that said, if you often have the best hand on the flop, you could just check every street and hope to show it down cheaply. (I think this is what I'd do, if I think villain's range has some total air in it). If villain's range looks more like KK/QQ, then I don't know why you called pre-flop or called on the flop.
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:45 PM   #5
Shamway99
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

Think about your/his range not single hand. Bet semibalanced range and your range wins longterm regardless whether it succesfully bluffs or succesfully valuebets.
Your bluff was catched now it does not mean V never folds. He could have JJ-KK maybe some Ax maybe some flush. He easily can fold weaker pairs/pairs with worse suits. V called KK still your bluff can work next time.
Just select your valuerange and bluffs with regard to betsize and bet them all day long.
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Old 09-07-2017, 03:41 PM   #6
Tutejszy
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

think of it this way: if you are betting this hand (which is quite literally the very last hand you should betting on the river), which hands that x/c flop are you NOT betting? Since you are betting with worst possible hand to bet, it means you are betting all of your hands on the river, which means villian has a trivial call with all bluffcatchers.

This is why betting ranges should be polarized (ie, bet weakest and strongest hands in your range), with middling hands making great checks.
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Old 09-07-2017, 06:29 PM   #7
Kelvis
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

Why would you attempt to bluff when you know your opponent has showdown value? Let's say you have JhTh, which is a way better hand to bet with, wouldn't you want him to have something like KQ?
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Old 09-08-2017, 01:43 PM   #8
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

I don't see any reason to believe that villain can not have an A. Villain could also have spades.

As the hand was played previously, I think check/folding the river is best.
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Old 09-08-2017, 04:48 PM   #9
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

He successfully pot controlled using position. He knows you're going to overprobe river when armed with a polarised range, he's factored in calling a sensibly sized bet as the cost of showdowning.

If you really want the pot then go get it, but it will take significantly more than 3/4th pot.
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Old 09-09-2017, 11:59 AM   #10
robert_utk
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

Once you check called the flop, you have mostly weak Ax and smaller pairs in your range. Villain will bluffcatch against your range on the river, so you would need to improve to bet river for value, or make a huge overbet on the river. Either check call twice and check fold river, or checkraise flop and barrel turn.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:54 PM   #11
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
(When villain checks back the turn, he often has SDV and is calling most river bets, so bluffing into him is unlikely to work).


This is a gem from Arty, thought it was worth pointing out. When players in position checkback that range is tilted towards showdown value. Pretty basic but often overlooked.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:08 AM   #12
just_grindin
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
This is a gem from Arty, thought it was worth pointing out. When players in position checkback that range is tilted towards showdown value. Pretty basic but often overlooked.
Yeah part of that though is the whole aggression then slowdown. Usually a pretty good indicator villain has sdv and it's going to take a really great board card for your range and probably a large bet to bluff successfully.

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Old 09-12-2017, 11:43 AM   #13
ArtyMcFly
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

FWIW, villain's "one-and-done" line is pretty terrible, and actually makes him bluffable on many rivers (including this one), since he doesn't have enough Ax or flushes to defend with when he takes that line. The only way he'll have enough bluffcatchers to call with on this river is if he checks back hands like AK on the turn, but that throws away a ton of "value-betting EV" on the turn, and allows CO to realize his equity for free.
Most of the hands that bet on the flop should be barreling the blankish turn, either for value/protection or as a bluff, as the deuce doesn't change anything. With hands that don't want to barrel and play for stacks (and KK is is such a hand), BTN should usually start by checking the flop. A flop check would be a better way of pot-controlling and inducing bluffs he can call. (A flop c-bet narrows CO's range to hands that have solid equity, such that BTN will be facing a polarized range on the riv). A check back on the flop keeps CO's range wide and weak, virtually prevents anyone getting stacked, and allows BTN to play the turn and river correctly much more easily.

I mean, the way the hand should probably go is...
Check-check flop.
Check-check turn.
Check-check river.

With the strength of each player's hands on this board (both have showdown value, and both the most obvious draws got there on the river, so no one can value-bet the river with less than top pair), the pot should never be over 50bb. But as soon as BTN c-bets the flop, this pot gets much bigger than it should do given the strength of each player's hand.

Last edited by ArtyMcFly; 09-12-2017 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:57 AM   #14
just_grindin
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

I apologize if I gave the impression that villain's line was good. I just meant that you see this line a lot against average/below average players and it's usually pretty transparent.

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Old 09-12-2017, 12:16 PM   #15
ArtyMcFly
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by just_grindin View Post
I apologize if I gave the impression that villain's line was good. I just meant that you see this line a lot against average/below average players and it's usually pretty transparent.
I don't think you gave that impression. I was just thinking out loud. I agree that the line is quite common and transparent. If often allows for +EV river bluff leads... just not when villain is bad enough to call with about the 50th nuts.
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Old 09-12-2017, 02:12 PM   #16
robert_utk
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

This hand and the way villain played it is so common. My problem is knowing which vils have a fold button with KK-JJ on the river.
Also, what bet sizing to use for hero, and at what frequency. Bad players will call with bluff catchers but at what bet sizes?

Do we agree that hero line was OK, but river bet needed to be larger? Lets try to forget that vil had KK.

If we correctly infer villain range is weak on this runout are we required to bomb the river 2x pot? Sounds high variance, but maybe all our river leads here should be oversized and polar.
But, then again we are pretty weak as played.
What about CR flop and barrel turn? Should fold out all the pairs and weak Ax.
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:49 AM   #17
ArtyMcFly
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
Do we agree that hero line was OK, but river bet needed to be larger? Lets try to forget that vil had KK.
I think most people thought hero should check the river and try for a free showdown. He could bluff with some weaker hands than this. JTs would seem like the most obvious bluffing candidate to me, since everything else in CO's range made at least a pair I think.

OP didn't post exact stacks/sizes, but the river situation should look something like this:


Since hero/CO should have some flushes, straights, sets and two pairs, but hardly any air, and villain/BTN is somewhat capped, I think a small sizing is appropriate for 2pr+ (value) and JTs (air), but maybe a large bet and a more polarized range is better. T9s seems a pretty clear check, since 2nd pair is slap-bang in the middle of CO's range. It's too weak to bet for value, but too strong to turn into a bluff.
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:02 PM   #18
blank0909
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

It didn't work once, does not mean it will always not work.
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:09 AM   #19
cashtorg
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Re: If I know my opponent has a big pocket pair, should I bluff with a board of scare cards.

Arty we'll also have some combos of flushes/sets, and maybe straights? (actually prob won't have 8Ts from oop) and villain is kind of capped right? I think it would be best for our bets to be bigger.

I think this is one of our better candidates for a bluff besides JTs. Others I can think of are 88 or TT with spade. We'll also have enough Ax for our check range, with some of the hands listed above mixed in as x/r? If that's needed
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