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How to play flush draws optimally - is Upswing outdated or a good guide? How to play flush draws optimally - is Upswing outdated or a good guide?

08-09-2019 , 05:37 PM
Looking to improve how I play FDs in tougher games and have a couple questions that would love to get some feedback / start a discussion.

I'm using Upswing's Upswing's 20 flush draw rules (first link on google) as a starting point. Do we still consider this theoretically sound advice? Or is this a bit dated / oversimplified? What would you add/subtract?

In general, Upswing wants us to balance our ranges as such: bet/raise weak flush draws and strong combo draws. Check/Call nut flush draws and weak combo draws.

In addition... would love to get help on a couple questions on playing flush draws on the river....

1. How do we determine / think about when to lead out when we are OOP and hit our flush draw on the river after X/C turn/flop? Right now I try to mix it up, but don't know (i) how to think about the right frequencies or (ii) how to think about which situations that might err better as a bet or check.

2. How do we determine / think about when to bluff with our NFDs that miss on the river? Upswing generally says to bluff with whiffed nut flush draws specifically. In lower live games I tend to decide based on if my opponent is a station or too passive/MUBSy. In tougher games I'm having a tough time picking.

Sorry know that these are broad topics tougher to discuss without a hand so that's why I wanted to post this in pokertheory.
How to play flush draws optimally - is Upswing outdated or a good guide? Quote
08-09-2019 , 05:46 PM
I had a quick look at the Upswing "Guide to playing flush draws", or whatever it was called, about 9 months ago. In my opinion, it was a pretty accurate set of guidelines that matches solver output in a general sense. It's (much) more up to date than any of the old poker books that had chapters about how to play draws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SandFish
Upswing generally says to bluff with whiffed nut flush draws specifically.
Does it? On the river, it's often the case that ace high is "too good" to put into a bluffing range, as ace high has some showdown value. Missed flush draws often don't make good river bluffs (because you want villain to be folding his own missed FDs). It obviously depends upon the board texture and the situation, but more commonly, you'd bluff with hands with better blockers and no showdown value. e.g. A missed jack-high gutshot.
How to play flush draws optimally - is Upswing outdated or a good guide? Quote
08-10-2019 , 05:45 AM
Yeah it probably is, they also removed the FD module from the Lab fwiw.

I think preferring to xr low FDs over high is the most obvious thing that's clearly wrong because you just set yourself up to get "coolered" by a higher flush when it comes in.

Solvers also prefer to bet stronger flushes and xb weaker for basically the same reason of wanting to have stronger hands in bigger pots. And it's not like you're giving up by checking back weak FD, you can delay cbet or call one bet basically always.
How to play flush draws optimally - is Upswing outdated or a good guide? Quote
08-10-2019 , 06:58 AM
How many missed flush draws one bluffs on the river depends on many things like how many value betting combos one has relative to bluff combos that will depend on the flop, turn and river.

If the nut flush draw should bluff, depends on the above and if it has sd-value and one should consider the blocker value of the ace also.

On the flop, when it comes to c-betting and raising, it also as so makes a difference to what one can have on the river.
How to play flush draws optimally - is Upswing outdated or a good guide? Quote

      
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