Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Poker Theory General poker theory

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-25-2008, 05:06 PM   #26
ProudDonkey
grinder
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Re: How to Grind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleFly View Post
I think the skill set and correct strategy to play short stack and deep stack are very different because of the hands you can correctly play. Also, with deep stacks, bluffs can get very involved with deeper stacks, whereas with shorter stacks, it becomes a shove a thon. I think the short stack game is much simpler because you are effectively removing a lot of possible hands from your and your opponents range.
That's what I mean when I said it'll be harder to develop your overall game.

Since you seem interested in 50bbs:
* this is effectively three bets in a raised pot. If you don't mind betting 3x with a pair, then I suppose it's fine. But you can limit yourself to 3 bets or less with full stacks by check-calling oop or checking down a street ip etc.
* but you can still use pot control with shorter stacks, even with 20bb.
* if a raise is 3.5bbs, then you are getting almost 16 to 1 to play pps (assuming you hit and are able to get it in). I think this is close to the odds needed, altho higher is better.
* before you go short stack, see how often you win 50+bb hands and how often you lose. Obviously, if you win more large pots, you shouldn't go to short stack. Also, this will give you an idea as to how often you've been stacking off w 1 pair, and how often you've been getting your money in bad.
* as for how to play particular hands like AK, for me it's villain dependent, and I try to randomize a la Harrington so it'll be harder for people to put me on a hand. But in general, I'm trying to check down one street.

Anyway, I don't think the play's changed drastically the last month, so if you had been doing well, I don't think you have to make any sweeping changes - maybe just a little fine tuning. Good luck.
hey man,
First, i think you are right about the differences between 50bb stacks and 100bb stacks. That's why i am trying to decide with help from you all which might be better for grinding out consistent wins when multitabling.

When multitabling, it can be very difficult to know whether or not to continue with your top pari with AK etc. With 100bb you obviously can't just start pumping money in with intentions of going all the way with it. But with 50bb, can you just start putting your money in and expect to get it in assuming no disgusting boards are present? Or is 50bb still too much of a stack to do that? Obviously, with 20bb for example, you are not folding top pair period. But is it the same for 50bb in your opinion? And if not, what approach should you generally take in regards to like top pair? Is it a check flop, bet turn type of thing. or bet flop and then shut down type of thing?

I mean you can expect to get it all in and called more often with the best hand as a 50bb stack than you will as a 100bb stack.. but i still dont know if thats the best approach.

The reason i have always liked 50bb is simply that you can still play your pairs by raising them up and such and still get paid off on sets etc.. but you can also still play big pairs and big cards profitable i think. Was i wrong here?

Also, i know with a half stack, if you raise up your pairs which i generally do, you have to dump them to a 3bet.. assuming they are small and medium pairs. With this in mind, should i not be playing any pairs from EP lower than say, TT? Or nothing lower than like 77 from MP?

In my experience, as a half or short stack i dont seem to be 3 bet as often as i am with a full stack, so it seems that raising up all my pairs PF is a viable option. Most of the time i either steal the blinds or jsut get flatted, which i dont mind.

Now i dont like much lower than 50bb, like around 20 and so due to that i cannot play pairs effectively at all. Its either shove or fold pretty much. Sure big pairs and AK go up in value, but thats hard to make money playing those as your only real money making hands. Plus, cbetting on missed board cripples your stack. So when you actually DO win a hand your not making much still. Your just basically earning back what you lost from missed boards. To me it seems the shorter your stack is, the harder it is to win some necessary bigger pots to outweigh 1)the blinds and 2) lost pots and lost cbets.

So, what effectively would a 40bb stack do? Is it some kind of healthy balance between short and half? Could i still raise my pairs up but also not be afraid of getting the money all in with top pair or great draw, etc. Or would i still need to be checking behind for pot control and be prepared to still fold top pairs, etc.
Is it much different from 50bb?

Basically, in light of all you had have said and we have discussed.. what do you tend to think and recommend now? And furthermore, how should i be playing my given hands with these stacks?

Thanks guys
ProudDonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 02:20 AM   #27
rlange
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Re: How to Grind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProudDonkey View Post
... the problem is.. the players and game flow at the stakes you are playing is nothing close to mid and higher stakes. Playing that nitty just doesn't work and you will get owned as you move up....
LOL. Thanks for your comment. Ill take careful notes and try to adjust my strategy when (and if) i move up.

And good luck to you. I hope you are able to hang in and ride it out.
I have subscribed for this thread so please make a post in a cuple of month or so so we can hear how it all went. My guess is that if you keep on geting the money in while your ahead you should win in the long run.
rlange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 04:54 AM   #28
ProudDonkey
grinder
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Re: How to Grind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlange View Post
LOL. Thanks for your comment. Ill take careful notes and try to adjust my strategy when (and if) i move up.

And good luck to you. I hope you are able to hang in and ride it out.
I have subscribed for this thread so please make a post in a cuple of month or so so we can hear how it all went. My guess is that if you keep on geting the money in while your ahead you should win in the long run.
hey man... i just wanted to make sure you didnt misunderstand my post. I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or not. Anyways, it wasn't meant to be an insult at all. I just trying to let you know that the games are different at different levels and you have to adjust according. GL to you.

As far as me keeping this thread updated. Well, i can give an update for the past couple days now.

I been playing 50bb stacks multitabling, and: well, the first two days after making my posts i did good. Played a couple hours each day.. made like 4 buy ins each on of those sessions and that was with some typical badbeats too. So all was good. Although i am still finding myself in spots i do not know how to handle with 50bb stacks. Like top pair, and facing a RR Pf when i hold like TT and JJ and QQ. Depending on the villain i been calling or folding the TT and JJ and been pushing the QQ. but not sure how efficent or +/- EV that is.

Today was a different story however. I got AA only twice in a 2 hour 16 table session and lost both all in to KK and QQ. lol So whatever. I also flopped 4 sets in that session and lost all 4. On to a higher set on turn. Two to runner runner flush, and one to runner runner straight. And before you say i might slowplay too much.. thats defiantly NOT the case. I rarely slowplay anything. So that session was a joke. I went down 4 buy ins.. and somehow managed to salvage the session and come back to losing only 1 buy in when i quit. Then i played another session and started off with a bang flopping monsters out of my mind... set after set, a couple flopped boats, and even a royal flush. Problem is.... i didn't make that much off of them. After all those hands i was up just over 2 buy ins. Thats not enough after all those hands. And guess what it came back to haunt me. Right after that rush i pick up AA and 3 bet a EP raiser. then a LP raiser 4 bets and i shove. He calls with KK and flops a set of course and i am done again. And yes thats right, I ended up 0-3 with AA being all in PF today... so sick.
I dont understand how i run this bad, I got a buddy who actually sits there from his house and watches all my tables to see how many badbeats i take. And yah, i know, EVERYONE gets badbeats and i dont care anymore about badbeat stories then the next guy. But DAMN... i will not be shy at all when i say i run WAY worse than anyone else i have seen. Its sick.. i dont get it at all. Every time i get all in on like turn against a 4 outer or less.. i am like a 80% dog.. no joke. lol
Another example of something that happened a couple times tonight. I raised or reraised with QQ and get called. flop is like J86 or J82.. i dont remember. Now i played this situation different both times tonight. First, villain checked and i bet flop. turn he checks and i check behind for a little pot control. river is a 4 and he bets, i call. he flips over 44! WTF?!
So next time i get this almost exact situation.. i played it like this: villain led flop and i flatted. Turn he checks so i bet almost pot. he calls again. River is a 2 this time and he bets i called. He flipped over 22! I was like.. WTF are you serious! LOL

So anyways, thats how my day went today. i ended up even on the day after my second session ended with that AA hand and those two outers on the river twice.

So again.. i will keep you guys updated. Its been horrible still.. but somehow i have wound up + this week so far. So whatever i guess... i dont understand it, but i will take it. lol


finally... if someone could provide some general tips when playing like TT-QQ PF with 50bb stacks. And also my other pairs, should i be raising with them PF or limping? I have done both and dont have enough hands to really see which is better yet.

Thanks everyone!

-PD
ProudDonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 05:52 AM   #29
rlange
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Re: How to Grind...

No offence taken. I'm a serous poker student and well aware of my limitations as such. I know my game is knitty as hell but it pays off.

Back to your problem: Maybe you fall in love with your hand a litle to often?
In my head if faced with a pf reraise with TT I imediatly put the willan on a beter pair (unless hes a real agro), or at least two over cards.
On the flop it might look like you are loosing to many big pots having "only" a pair.
Some questions:
1. How do you interpret betting paterns in these situations?
2. What is the difference in your game when your in position and out of position?
3. What does it taks to make you go all in post flop?
4. What does it take to make you fold for a big raise post flop?

And just for the record. This is not sarcasm.
rlange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2008, 10:51 PM   #30
ProudDonkey
grinder
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Re: How to Grind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlange View Post
No offence taken. I'm a serous poker student and well aware of my limitations as such. I know my game is knitty as hell but it pays off.

Back to your problem: Maybe you fall in love with your hand a litle to often?
In my head if faced with a pf reraise with TT I imediatly put the willan on a beter pair (unless hes a real agro), or at least two over cards.
On the flop it might look like you are loosing to many big pots having "only" a pair.
Some questions:
1. How do you interpret betting paterns in these situations?
2. What is the difference in your game when your in position and out of position?
3. What does it taks to make you go all in post flop?
4. What does it take to make you fold for a big raise post flop?

And just for the record. This is not sarcasm.


you have to remember.. i have been playing 50bb stacks. 100bb stacks and i would never be playing top pair so strong. But for half stacks, you can and should cause you can get more value from them by playing them a little stronger then you can with 100bb.
ProudDonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 01:20 AM   #31
ProudDonkey
grinder
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Re: How to Grind...

OK guys WTF!!!!!!!!

Update: Today i got KK three times in my session. Tice was outflopped bya lowr pair fro a friggin set. Then all in and lost to AA.

Next.. i hit like 5 or 6 sets in this session and got absolutely not jack s.hit for any of them except 1. And that 1.. i lost my stack to runner runner flush.

And here is what is repeatedly killing me. I kep raising with say, AJ from LP. called by blinds with A6 for example. Flop is A high. he bets, i pot raise him. Turn is his 6. Its happening non stop. WTF do i need to do? seriously. Just lost another damn 3 buy ins with the best hand all in every time but once against the Aa with my KK.

Anyways, this was a full buy in session by the way. So whatever.... nothings working, thats fine. Please help. lol

Adjustments need to be made i guess. Cause not just me... all the other regulars i saw playing tonight were getting killed by ridiculous fish plays. I just dont see or understand how they keep winning so often. anyways, I am off here for now. Help with stack sizes and how to play those stack sizes would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys, ttyl

-PD
ProudDonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 03:25 AM   #32
rlange
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Re: How to Grind...

Just for curiocity: What site are you playing on?
I realy begin to wonder if its something fishy is going on after all.
There exists "proof" that some sites have cheeted players...
Absolute Poker for instance was busted when they discovered that one of the owners was geting informations about all whole cards in a tourney.
rlange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 03:50 AM   #33
rez
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 60
Re: How to Grind...

Is this happening on the Merge Network?
rez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 10:19 AM   #34
ProudDonkey
grinder
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Re: How to Grind...

no this has been happening to me on FullTilt. I have been winning there fine for years and now all of the sudden for last month shi.t has been crazy off the wall ridiculous. I mean, there isn't any point in me going over all the hands, you have seen a sample of what i am talking about.
but in summary.... the last 2 days here are some general stats which i find extremely weird.

AA all in preflop i am now 1 for 8!
KK all in preflop I am 0-4 vs smaller pairs and the other 4 times i have been agaisnt AA!
I have hit 16 sets. Exactly half of those sets i lost.. mainly to runner runner.
The other 8 sets i won... I didn't earn another bet the entire hand besides preflop.
Every hand i play i either hit something huge and no one has shi.t or I hit something huge and i get beat and am beat every single time. Its f.ucking nuts.

I just dont understand this right now at all. The last two days have been horrible.. and they are not even the worst of it. The few weeks before it are equally as bad and worse. I have always been someone who told people to shut up when talking about integrity of sites and cheating, etc. But cmon now.. this is way past ridiculous. I am still not saying anything like that is going on.. but something is real messed up now. I am WAY past regular variance. My three biggest losing situations right now are AA and KK all in preflop. And hitting sets! Thats just not right and i need to do something about this. I just dont see how i keep running this far below average and this much worse than everyone else right now.

I am gonna go back to like half stacks or something and try to lower this variance again with my big pairs. Because it is uncanny how often i lose with AA all in preflop.

Again... any help with tips playing these stack sizes would be great. Thanks
ProudDonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 12:15 PM   #35
DoubleFly
Pooh-Bah
 
DoubleFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Still Bloggin, Stakin, & Affiliatin
Posts: 5,987
Re: How to Grind...

So just to switch things up, I played some FR for the first time in a while, and I would say the vast majority of players look like they are set mining. I was up small, but looking at my 6 biggest losses, 5 were AK and 1 AQ (where I flopped TP). Most were not full stack losses, but they were still 50+ BBS. My biggest wins were mostly sets. I'm not sure if 50BB buy ins are optimal for this game. To price out low to mid prs, you need to get around 10+% of your stack in preflop (assuming it's not multiway). You will have to modify your play based on stack size. I keep saying this, but don't worry if you get your money in good. As for the people who river sets, they are not really getting the right odds, unless you are a cbetting fiend, so don't worry about it.
DoubleFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 12:35 PM   #36
klamz
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 86
Re: How to Grind...

Wait wait wait a minute. Hold the godman boat!! first of all playing more then 2 tables at a time is ******ed! you cannot possibly be on top of everthing at all times. I dont care how good you are. you will play more robotic and have a harder time reading people with more players involved. I say play 1 full ring table at a time MAYBE 2.

Your other mistake is that you are playing online.

The bottom line is that the online software is going to F*ck with you. It's not pure and it's not entirely legit. Does the name POTRIPPER ring a bell? If not look it up


just to sum it up.

Keep it live! and keep it simple!

Ive had much better luck playing live. It is soooo different

And that's just like my opinion man!
klamz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 04:10 PM   #37
DoubleFly
Pooh-Bah
 
DoubleFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Still Bloggin, Stakin, & Affiliatin
Posts: 5,987
Re: How to Grind...

if you are trying something new, it couldn't hurt to play fewer tables than usual to see how the table reacts, etc. If you are comfortable with 16, maybe cut down to 8 or 12 until you find a strategy mix that works for you.
DoubleFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 12:13 AM   #38
chokeholdem
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 142
Re: How to Grind...

wow another person catching bs on fulltilt
i was also running well on ft for a couple of years and playing online for about 5 years. not a grinder just playing 2-3 tables max full ring. I enjoy playing live at AC so playing mechanical doesnt really do it for me thus less tables and more deliberate plays. I have a day job so i try to take the losses in stride and the limited time causes me to be much more loose than i should be. I have a very good foundation (study it everychance i get) but like everyone else trying to take it to the next level. I mostly play 2-4 online and 2/5 or 5/10 live. sorry for the long intro... i will admit that after the past few months ive been really questioning the random poker algorithm on FT. I know everyone bitches when they lose but i was seeing continuous hands with >3 std. dev. occurring in sessions for month. I play 10-12 hours live and dont see the drastic variance in a 2 hour session online. Even some of the hands i was winning was like wow. i tried to evaluate and graph on excel some of the information from sessions but the samples are not large enough and dont get to see the discarded hand so poor information. but FT is having an independent audit of their algorithm due to the excess complaints of bad beats. so you never know

anyway you may want to play live for a couple of sessions and see if that improves your psyche cuz i think you may be compounding your problems with unrealized tilt. You seem to be mentioning more of your bad beats and sounding desperate so you may have to stop and analyze the situation. clear your head by playing live, its much easier. 2/5 live is signif. easier than 2/4 online. so it may not be your game and although that type of variance is mathematically probable but sh** you never know when a live dealer is not flipping over cards. cant trust anyone or anything these days and by the way a lot of illegal programs are not restricted on FT like they are on Stars so i think i'm making the switch.
but good luck and i hope someone can shed better light on your situation.
chokeholdem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 08:59 PM   #39
DoubleFly
Pooh-Bah
 
DoubleFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Still Bloggin, Stakin, & Affiliatin
Posts: 5,987
Re: How to Grind...

Well you probably play 3x more hands per hour online than live, so if you play 2.5 tables at a time, you should see 7.5x more hands per hour than live. So it makes sense that you see more variance in 2 hours of online poker than 11 hours of live poker.

Anyway, since my last posts, I've been playing exclusively FR (from 6 max), and I've made enough adjustments to be a decent winning player. The things that some of the "old timers" need to adjust to is that the field is a lot more knowledgeable and more aggressive than in the past, so you have to adjust your game accordingly. I make money every month, and my all-in ev is pretty close to my winnings every month (over a lot of hands), so talk of the rigging/ non-random generator is not believable to me. It's just people have selective memory - they expect to win 70-30 flips all the time, and remember the 3 they lost a lot more than the 7 they won.
DoubleFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 09:10 PM   #40
brokekid
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: joined the 50NL and here to stay
Posts: 2,598
Re: How to Grind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleFly View Post
they expect to win 70-30 flips all the time, and remember the 3 they lost a lot more than the 7 they won.

I think thats because they lose more money in the 3 than the 7 they won....
brokekid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 07:05 AM   #41
kroeliewoelie
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,101
Re: How to Grind...

didn't read replies, but your op sounds like you need a break. take a few days of and try again.
kroeliewoelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 08:23 PM   #42
disco_card
stranger
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: uk
Posts: 5
Re: How to Grind...

just had a crap day watched a fish take down a $5 pot in 5-10cent with 2-7! i get it all in pre flop with QQ and he calls with 88 and spikes a 8 on the flop, i suppose the fish have to get lucky once in a while or they wont keep coming back. but im still tilting!
disco_card is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2012, 04:35 PM   #43
eldodo42
adept
 
eldodo42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: pre-flopping sets
Posts: 1,026
Re: How to Grind...

sick bump. Is it still possible to ban OP?
eldodo42 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive