Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Poker Theory General poker theory

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-26-2020, 03:07 PM   #101
wacker1913
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,558
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y.J View Post
I didnít say Nashes theory was wrong. So the math is irrelevant.

You do realise you make absolutely no sense? Youíre just going mad because your obsessed with an equilibrium strategy. If i say anything bad about Nash or GTO you go mental and try to get me banned.

You are clearly trolls. Trolling all over my thread with mindless condemnation. I bet youíre not usually like this...
Paisting vs J.T would be interesting.
The jammer vs the limper

Cant help myself but why do I think of the movie "dumb and dumber" while writing this?
wacker1913 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2020, 09:26 PM   #102
Aesah
Concept of the Week Author
 
Aesah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,094
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

didn't read at all but how are we still having threads on 2+2's Poker Theory in 2020 that begin with "How to Exploit GTO"

the whole freaking point of GTO is that it is unexploitable that is like, literally the definition of playing GTO
Aesah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2020, 09:26 AM   #103
Lego05
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 24,309
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y.J View Post
We can improve our EV against GTO on some “nodes”. On this you agree with me.

You’re saying that I would lose money by not opening the extra hands against someone who uses the GTO strategy which is also true.

I’m saying that provided the villain doesn’t know the entire GTO strategy, you can improve your ev against him when his strategy matches GTO, and you don’t lose any money because you play your weaker hands in the situations where he doesn’t know GTO.
You're just assuming you don't lose any money with your weaker hands in those situations. Maybe you don't; maybe you do. It depends on whether you play those situations better than your opponent to enough of a degree to overcome the "lost" EV from previous decisions that were designed to get into this game state.

It's an attempt to trade a "mistake" for (hopefully) a much bigger "mistake" from your opponent later on.

This is essentially how you exploit someone. You purposefully make a "mistake" because they make larger "mistakes" that your "mistake" takes advantage of.

It'll work if the opponent makes mistakes bigger to enough of a degree and it won't if they don't. Also, hero has to not make additional mistakes in this unusual game state that he sought to cause, unless of course such additional "mistakes" are on purpose to take further advantage of larger "mistakes" by the opponent, which leads to the same thing where it won't work if the opponent doesn't make those larger "mistakes" or if hero makes additional mistakes in this unusual game state.


Also, hopefully the real life human opponent never adjusts. It basically seems that hands are being played linearly with strong hands played 1 way and then at some cutoff point all weaker hands being played another way. So, if the opponent did ever adjust it seems like just a couple simple adjustments would completely destroy this. Of course, you'd say that then you would just adjust again and "rinse" your opponent.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Y.J View Post
I do realise that your weakest opening hands make most their profit from fold equity when you open them, they might well lose money overall when you open them. YOU don’t realise that when you limp them this is no longer true. You said that I won’t be able to build a big pot with those hands, but nor do I want to as these hands suck. Limping is a great way to pot control.
If this is true then they wouldn't be in a GTO opening range. They'd probably be a fold. In non-rake environments, they might be limps. Players trying to play exploitatively should also not open a hand if they expect that they'll lose money overall by opening such hand, unless it somehow inspires really drastic and ongoing mistakes from the opponent (e.g. I'd min-open any 2 cards against a Paisting like player until he started shoving any 2 for hours and then adjust to that).




P.S.

Y.J did really write a book. Here's the link:

https://www.amazon.com/Levels-Learn-.../dp/1527211711

Last edited by Lego05; 09-27-2020 at 09:45 AM.
Lego05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2020, 12:01 AM   #104
zachvac
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
zachvac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,774
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

It seems YJ is just a pro's pro who would crush us all. So graph?
zachvac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2020, 06:10 AM   #105
Y.J
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 67
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

I did really write a book Lego! I said I was going to, all those years ago. Back then I knew as much poker theory as anyone, but when writing that book I worked out sooo much new stuff! I’ve basically mapped out the mind. How beings strategise. This is some kind of weird sacred knowledge and so only certain people can comprehend it. Everyone else goes mental!

The topic for this thread is pretty new to me so I’m not too confident about ALL the stuff I’m saying here...

You are right that I’m assuming the opponent will play worse than me on those other spots. You’re still missing the main point though. I am saying that you are able to strengthen your opening range BEYOND GTO thanks to the mistakes he makes when limping. The situations in which I tighten up become stronger than GTO. The situations in which I loosen up is the only place where the opponent has an opportunity to exploit me.

I’m just explaining how your profit is realised when making different exploitative plays.

Do correct this if this is wrong, but I’m pretty sure that if the villain has already made a mistake when you make your counter-balance there is no way for him to adjust to beat you:

If the opponent opens and I think he’s already made some mistake as he never limps. I can fold more hands than GTO dictates to gain an edge over GTO during any future plays. I think. This sacrifices the profit I would have made against his mistake, but instead my profit is realised against him when he makes his future plays whether they are GTO or not

I was hoping someone better at math would be able to more closely analyse the difference between exploiting by tightening up in comparison to loosening up. I’ve explained the basic theory in this thread, but the math is too complicated for me. Unfortunately, nobody can get past the whole “GTO can’t be beaten” nonsense.

You’re wrong about all GTO hands being B/E at worst. Against another GTO player some hands will make money and some will lose money. AA will clearly make loads of profit against the villains GTO range. Other hands in the GTO range will lose money too. GTO is about finding the balance whereby, at worst, you have as many hands that lose than you do that win.
Y.J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2020, 10:27 AM   #106
Didace
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Didace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 16,358
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y.J View Post
I am saying that you are able to strengthen your opening range BEYOND GTO thanks to the mistakes he makes when limping.
Why do you think this is some great new insight?
Didace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2020, 05:28 AM   #107
Y.J
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 67
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

I’ve already explained why this logic is new many times, I’m not doing it again. The real question is, why are so many people giving me so much **** for teaching new exploitative theory???

I know the answer. I can read you all like books. I know your thoughts better than you know them yourselves. I can tell all sorts of random things about all of you.

For example, Didace is known among his friends as arrogant, but he tells himself he’s just smarter than them. He did get a better education than most, he does so believe in a getting a strong education. He’s a nice bloke, well read, but he’s soft. He knows how to flow but he doesn’t know how to crash. He stays away from real conflict, he tells himself he rises above it but the truth is that he’s scared. He’s from a middle class background. Was it a boys school? My first thought was that he was an only child, but this doesn’t seem right for some reason. I do think he has an older brother, I think my confusion is probably caused by the large age gap between them. I’m guessing he also has a younger sister too, but there is a big age gap again. The siblings wernt close. He works in some crappy office job and gets paid less than he deserves. He might work with coders, or accountants maybe, he’s some kind of middle management or at-least he was, I get the impression he’s out of work nowadays, making a little cash on the side instead. His major flaw is his arrogance, he thinks he’s better than everyone around him which enables him to be exploited by his inner-demons and by players like me. I’d raise the **** out of him. He’d tell himself he’s making sensible plays by folding loads, but really, he’ll just be scared.

Some of that might be wrong, I always get something wrong. What I’m amazing at is telling how good a poker player is. I can generally work out exactly what each player knows and doesn’t know about poker.

You all are at different skill levels, but the only person here who could even beat the low stakes cash games online comfortably is Lego. He’s a real player, he could handle himself in the midstakes, but when it comes to theory he is still ridiculously far behind me. He does know almost all there is to know about the fundamentals of poker, but, he doesn’t realise how all the information fits together into one thought-process. This is generally revealed to a player when they reach Level Four, and I’ve heard him speak about the most advanced Level Three theory, so that’s where I’d put him. If you’ve read through all these long messages Lego, if you ever make it to here, answer this question in no more than 6 words and I suspect you’ll have a profound moment of realisation as you unlock the next piece of exploitative theory in your mind:

“If the villain is good enough to always follow the cards that he is representing, what can we always assume about his range?”

You should all get off my back, realise there is a master among you, and listen to what’s im telling you: GTO is ****ing with your heads, it’s so bad that it’s about to bring the world to its end!!

... Lol, I do sound like a crazy bloke, but my poker theory is undeniable.

Last edited by Y.J; 10-06-2020 at 05:48 AM.
Y.J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2020, 05:52 AM   #108
Y.J
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 67
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by zachvac View Post
It seems YJ is just a pro's pro who would crush us all. So graph?
This guy only read the title to this thread, he tried to read on but didnít understand. Just like he doesnít understand why MTTís are the only games he can beat.
Y.J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2020, 06:04 AM   #109
Y.J
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 67
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

Most of you a nice enough, that’s why I play at your heartstrings by saying things like: “I just wonna talk to the best theorists in the world”. Lol, it is funny, but it works. I’m exploiting your flaws in the opposite way to how I’ve described in this thread. Instead of leaning towards your weakness, I’m leaning towards your strengths. Instead of making you weaker it makes you stronger and more capable of fighting your demons.
Y.J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2020, 10:18 AM   #110
Didace
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Didace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 16,358
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y.J View Post
Iíve already explained why this logic is new many times, ...
There is nothing new in your post. If it's new to you, great. But good players knew this years ago. Glad you could catch up.
Didace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2020, 07:04 AM   #111
Y.J
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 67
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

Lol!

So, show me someone else, anyone in the world who has explained that when you tighten up to exploit you take your profit share from all the villains future plays, whether they be GTO or not... you can’t, because ITS NEW

The reason you’re can’t comprehend it is the same reason most exploitative theory is beyond most of your comprehension. I’ve tried my best to teach you, to get you past this issue, but I am pretty tired of taking your ****.

I try to go when God directs me, and unless someone has something else to add, I suspect he sent me here only to realise what a waste of time it is trying to teach you guys.
Y.J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2020, 06:29 PM   #112
k0rnili0s
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 61
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

Imagine a HU SnG. Recursive push-fold toy games that follow Nash can be exploited as a mean to maximise win %... Similarly you can exploit other spots where multiple equilibria exist when considering i.e. multi-way spots, raked environments, future EV, and so on.
Let alone pseudo-equilibrium solutions...
k0rnili0s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2020, 07:08 PM   #113
Y.J
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 67
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

... That doesn’t make sense to me??

I don’t think it is possible to beat GTO in a HU push fold SNG. I think rake should be catered for by the GTO strategy. It should also cater for multi-way spots. It should cater for future EV too.

The way I see it, if you find a way to beat GTO all you’ve actually done is find where the mistake lies in what you thought was a GTO strategy. For example: If you think GTO can be beaten in certain raked environments, you haven’t learnt how to appreciate rake when designing your GTO strategy.
Y.J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 12:26 AM   #114
wacker1913
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,558
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y.J View Post
Some of that might be wrong, I always get something wrong.
Yep you are right - you always get something wrong - lol.
Never laughed so much while reading posts from a person...
wacker1913 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 05:42 PM   #115
Cash Beast Ezra
adept
 
Cash Beast Ezra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,129
Re: How to Exploit the GTO 3bet

Y.J is the gder01 of the modern poker era.

A true pioneer.
Cash Beast Ezra is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online