Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Poker Theory General poker theory

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-12-2019, 08:29 PM   #1
nightmaretilt
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 63
Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

In NL we get 2 cards, I’ve always thought of this as making our equity much ‘sharper’ and more concentrated: so we generally don’t connect with the board very often, and our EQ is more rhobust when we do compared to other variants. Pre flop ranges are tight, range vs range dynamics are what the game is about because we never hit the damn board.

Even when playing short handed NL online (3-5 plyrs, fast paced) we still aren’t connecting with the board very often. I know this is relative but I’m sure you know what I mean. If you have played PLO, Mix, stud etc. before then going back to NL is like watching paint dry in slow motion

In a full ring game there is an EPIC amount of waiting involved, esp live. To the point where live NL grinders are notorious for watching movies on their iPhones or iPads. Yes this is table-opponent-dynamics dependent, but IMO this is ridiculous, it is an inherently flawed game that we all accept bcz the casinos want to max the ratio of dealers to players. If only some creative casino owner was willing to pay for more dealers, and create six max tables: that room would have all the action in town. IMO Full ring NL is a broken game, and I wish I could snap my fingers and make this a 6-Max world. If live no limit we’re more exciting more recs would play, and the ecosystem would be envigorated. If your a standard pit-game weekend gambler do you really want to go upstairs and play full ring NL when you could be throwing dice!? 6MAX would attract so many degenz: food for thought

Last edited by nightmaretilt; 02-12-2019 at 08:36 PM.
nightmaretilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2019, 08:40 PM   #2
Didace
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Didace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 14,513
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

When was the last time I heard in a card room, "Thank god we're down to six players."? I'm going to go with - never.
Didace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2019, 08:51 PM   #3
tuccotrading
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,180
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

The pros who have made tons of cash playing ring game NLH may disagree.

And remember, many of the weakest players only play ring games.

However, everyone can have their own criteria.
____

Side Note That You May Like:

Vegas did not have a steady NLH game for over 15 years because one bad player will have hard time winning for a weak playing with regs. Stud-type games and LH were what we had. Every room had low limit stud.

Many sharp people thought of Vegas NLH as mostly a dead game that would never make a comeback; not counting when major tournaments came to town. Not enough luck to skill in NLH to make the game extremely popular was the sharp opinion at the time.

Then came the hole card camera and boom! We had a NLH boom as millions of players with no real experience showed up; poker on TV never caught on before that for obvious reasons.

Online, initially, LH was the game but that changed and then Party Poker started running TV adds; everyone was advertising; affiliate programs; etc.

Last edited by tuccotrading; 02-12-2019 at 09:00 PM.
tuccotrading is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2019, 09:13 PM   #4
pot_committed
centurion
 
pot_committed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 108
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace View Post
When was the last time I heard in a card room, "Thank god we're down to six players."? I'm going to go with - never.
That has to do with the rake structure rather than the inherent nature of the game.
pot_committed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2019, 11:05 PM   #5
+EVillain
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 349
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

The amount of hours live-pros are forced to invest in order to see any volume is brutal. It would be great if casinos ran 6MX and FR
+EVillain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2019, 07:43 PM   #6
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArtyMcFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 11,783
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

There's a dichotomy for the provider of the game.
Should they make it 6-max so it's less boring for everyone, if it means the weakest players might go busto more quickly?

I pity the regs that play a big slate of tourneys at the WSOP. Some of those are 10-handed with 300bb stacks at the start. As far as I can tell (from twitter), no professional likes playing those games, where you just have to fold all the time.
Maybe it's the case that the casual players like the fact that the slow pace of full ring means their "entertainment dollars" last a whole day or more. 6-max would put them under a bit more pressure.
I'm sure the casinos have surveyed their customers to ask them what they actually want. Haven't they?
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2019, 08:13 PM   #7
WorldzMine
veteran
 
WorldzMine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,002
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace View Post
When was the last time I heard in a card room, "Thank god we're down to six players."? I'm going to go with - never.
I've only played live a handful of times but I do love when it get's down to 6 players and I can play closer to what I think is "real" poker tbh.
WorldzMine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2019, 08:14 PM   #8
WorldzMine
veteran
 
WorldzMine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,002
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I'm sure the casinos have surveyed their customers to ask them what they actually want. Haven't they?
Is this a troll? Because I really doubt it.
WorldzMine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2019, 08:17 PM   #9
pot_committed
centurion
 
pot_committed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 108
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldzMine View Post
I've only played live a handful of times but I do love when it get's down to 6 players and I can play closer to what I think is "real" poker tbh.
You say that because you have only played live a handful of times. If you play more you will notice the rake. Next time you lose more than 3 players at a table ask for reduced rake. I think most good players will bust the table before they play short-handed at full rake.
pot_committed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 03:52 AM   #10
browni3141
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2,956
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

I'd much rather play 6-max than 9-max. 9-max forces me to be a nit (relative to everyone else). Fish play loose regardless of the format because they are not positionally aware. For some reason they want as many players at a table as possible and many won't even play 6-handed.

I think a change in Hold'em which incentivizes looser pre-flop play and more flops seen would be positive. Not sure what would "fix" it, though.
browni3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 09:30 PM   #11
BDHarrison
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 3,068
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmaretilt View Post
Even when playing short handed NL online (3-5 plyrs, fast paced) we still arenít connecting with the board very often. I know this is relative but Iím sure you know what I mean. If you have played PLO, Mix, stud etc. before then going back to NL is like watching paint dry in slow motion
In live PLO, I am a preflop nit who probably doesn't break 20% VPIP. Stud is a game that usually favors tightness on third street unless the antes are large. I might actually play more hands in NL.

Is NL an inherently flawed variant or are you an inherently flawed player who needs opponents to gift you chips for you to be a winner.

What is so bad about playing tight?
BDHarrison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 08:58 AM   #12
getmeoffcompletely
old hand
 
getmeoffcompletely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,327
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

4max is the purest form of NL holdem.
getmeoffcompletely is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2019, 12:05 AM   #13
Lozgod
journeyman
 
Lozgod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 354
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

6max live. That would be awesome. I picture profits unimaginable vs casual gamblers. Thatís probably why it wouldnít work for a casino. The 6max tables would have 5 players that know the advantages of 6max and a rotating seat of the poor fish that donít know what they got in to.

Eventually the fish would probably figure out not to play 6max. Doesnít seem like a win for the casino when you really think about it.

10/9max tables produce action where 5 players call preflop to 6 and 7x BB raises. Thatís what benefits the casino.
Lozgod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 01:08 AM   #14
nightmaretilt
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 63
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

you guys are probably right, people like the relaxed community feeling of 9 handed NL. if casinos offered both that would be amazing, even if they charged higher rake for 6mx. its brutal that live pros are forced to play tons of hours to see any considerable volume. i just cant help but wonder if we should second guess a game type where it is customary to watch movies while you play because the intervals between action hands are so long. i think a lot of recs find full-ring boring. the recs look bored out of their minds at quiet tables with no conversation
nightmaretilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2019, 07:02 PM   #15
tuccotrading
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,180
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
There's a dichotomy for the provider of the game.
Should they make it 6-max so it's less boring for everyone, if it means the weakest players might go busto more quickly?

I pity the regs that play a big slate of tourneys at the WSOP. Some of those are 10-handed with 300bb stacks at the start. As far as I can tell (from twitter), no professional likes playing those games, where you just have to fold all the time.
Maybe it's the case that the casual players like the fact that the slow pace of full ring means their "entertainment dollars" last a whole day or more. 6-max would put them under a bit more pressure.
I'm sure the casinos have surveyed their customers to ask them what they actually want. Haven't they?

Most big losing players who play casino poker prefer fuller tables.

Often as the table gets bellow six players the worst players sit out; quit; ask about other games, etc.

Vegas used to play 11 handed and then after much discussion we went to 10 handed and then after many years we went to 9 handed.

Casinos love seeing the rare two six handed games going at the same time but mostly the losing players prefer fuller tables.
tuccotrading is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2019, 10:56 PM   #16
adios
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Russian Troll
Posts: 21,376
Re: Is full ring NL an inherently flawed variant

No it isn’t flawed. There is a theoretically correct play in all situations is the best way I can put it. This is especially true if you are heads up. In NL you typically have a lot of leverage and can offer your opponent any odds you’d like. Not so much in limit.
adios is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online