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Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH)

07-13-2017 , 10:26 AM
As some other posters already mentioned, if you don't call anyway and just 3b a ton, i don't think it's a problem. Just construct a somewhat balanced 3b strategy, mostly depending on playerpool tendencies and player types. The 3betting range is not the problem, because it can't be capped, if you polarize correctly (against certain villains only of course).

If you intend to call with a somewhat wide range, i think it should absolutely contain hands like AA or KK, even if you mix it in only very rarely, since it usually is capped and that way you throw your opponents off and at the same time protect your range against certain flop textures.

I think wether you have a 95%/5% mix or just 3b 100% of the time would not make that much of a difference, but from a technical standpoint it makes alot of sense. Having a flat of like 50% with AA is horrific, totally agree with other posters.
Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote
07-13-2017 , 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk
Is this because GTO is supposed to be never "always" do a certain thing?
There's a helluva lot of mixing in GTO solutions, but the mixing usually happens with mid-strength hands, and only rarely with the nuts.
e.g. You would typically always 3-bet KK+, but with AK and QQ or KQs you could mix between 3-betting and calling, since these hands are not "100% fist-pump stack offs" or "obvious bluffs".
When you're bloating the pot (with a 3-bet), you clearly want that range to be your strongest, hence why it will contain the nuts more often than not, but board coverage and balance comes from mixing in a multitude of hands at lower frequencies.

FWIW, 4-bet/5-bet pots are a little different. I think AA is sometimes flatted instead of 4-bet/5-bet, because otherwise your ranges will become too capped/face up/exploitable. Facing a single raise, though, ranges are still wide enough (i.e. there are enough combinations) to allow you to 3-bet the top of your range at 100% frequency.
Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote
07-16-2017 , 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donovan
One of the members of my strategy group is "stuck on" flatting AA vs an open raise 100bb effective.
He came across the idea in Mathew Janda's book Applications.. I saw it, it's definitely in there.

If you don't want to read this thick wall of text you could just answer; do you think it could be better to flat call AA as your standard play in most games from button vs CO or is that sort of ridiculous?

I think it is silly

But Mathew Janda advocated this in his book.

So, just "Should we follow the advice of MJ or should we 3 bet AA CO vs BU which seems SO OBVIOUSLY better to me and what I know about NLH strategy?"

About MJ and flatting AA vs a LP open raise (YUCK)..

This really was just an anecdotal side note in his book and I don't think it was meant to be gospel truth, he just said that he found it helpful and more profitable to have AA in his flat vs CO open range when on the button than putting it into a 3 bet range.

I'm hearing things like "Not flatting AA means our calling range is capped and we can be exploited for not having an uncapped flatting range" and "villain will never expect us to have AA in our calling range so he will be likely to misplay his hand against ours by way of not interpreting our range correctly.


So, my arguments are basically; 1) We would rather cap our flatting range in position than CAP OUR 3 BETTING RANGE (seems rather straight forward to me but????)
2) We should be 3 betting a lot of hands in position against a single raiser when we have the button because.. position.
3) The more very strong hands in our 3 bet range the more we can bluff and the more we can bluff the more hands we can play overall as calls, flats, and raises
4) you can't use "logic" like "we get value by tricking our opponent" because that basically translates to "If we play poorly our opponent will not expect us to play poorly and, therefor, our play won't be poor which means we should use some other play instead because, remember, we don't want to play correctly because our opponents will expect us to,..etc etc etc ad infinitum"

*I call this type of thinking "The Princess Bride Paradox" after the scene in the movie where villain can't drink from the cup that seems obvious but he would be expected to know that so he must drink from the cup he cant drink from so on and so fourth.. very circular and Rock Paper Scissor-esque


But I want to know if maybe there is something I am missing and that AA really ought to be played as a flat call in a lot (maybe most) games for exploitative reasons

or is there some GT based reasons that we may actually prefer to uncap our flatting range even if it means capping our 3 bet range??

Or, if this is as simple as it feels to me, and flatting AA is pretty DAMN bad like I think it is, do you have a good argument that I can maybe use to help my friends to see this?
in low stakes cash this is a leak. never expect your opponent to do the betting for you and allowing their full range of trash to hit the flop for a low price is asking for trouble.
Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote
07-16-2017 , 10:21 PM
i've read a lot of poker books and if they don't classify a strategy to a villain type its mostly hogwash for applying it at the tables. There may be truth to it from a mathematical long run EV against their GTO villain in a 1 billion run sim, but i believe it will get you in serious trouble in real small stakes cash games.
Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote
07-21-2017 , 08:03 PM
FWIW I'm pretty sure in Cardrunners videos that came out after the book, Janda did not advocate for this type of play anymore.
Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote
07-22-2017 , 09:32 AM
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Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote
07-28-2017 , 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk
Is this because GTO is supposed to be never "always" do a certain thing?

I am not convinced that equilibrium requires randomness in the first 2 bets, such as open the pot and 3bet in position.

It is possible that AA should always be 3bet in position, along with a random selection of weaker hands that can not flat call profitably.

Thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No, its the opposite. GTO is always do the same thing if that thing prevents the players from unilaterally deviating to another thing in order to increase EV. Unless the choice of 2 or more things all have the same EV they cannot be contained in a GTO strategy by definition. And for sure there is no "randomness" in a equilibrium solution.
Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote
07-29-2017 , 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
We fold some of our cold-calling hands, but the squeezer still expects to win a bigger share of the 3-bet pot than we do when we call the 3-bet. i.e. We just call because it's slightly better than folding and we have the pot odds to continue. The squeezer has the range advantage, so he can make money with his bluffs as well as his value hands.
To do the math, imagine CO opens 2.5x, we call 2.5x on the BTN and the BB squeezes to 10.5bb, CO folds. BB is risking 9.5bb (on top his forced BB). We only need to call 8bb to see a flop, where the pot will be 24bb. BB needs to get 9.5bb from that pot to break even. We only need to win 8bb to break even. In the long run we both win, because of the dead money put in by players who folded pre. Due to his range advantage, the BB might win something like 14/24bb of the pot (4.5bb profit), leaving us with 10bb (2bb more than the cost of calling the 3-bet, and a half big blind loss on the hand in total, but still better than folding pre and losing 2.5bb) and happy days for all concerned, apart from the CO, who probably folded the best hand.
Personally think you should be given green, or some great poster award.

You've answered more of my questions than anyone, and everytime I personally think with great replies.

Just my 2c
Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote
07-30-2017 , 02:37 PM
+1. I just created a thread and was hoping that Arty would respond because he is genuinely good willed, informative, well spoken, and just a pleasure to read. Sure enough he replied an hour later and I learned a thing or two as well. Arty, we are lucky to have you. Oh, and that bit about the CO probably having the best hand was brilliant!
Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote
07-31-2017 , 12:00 PM
+1,000,000
Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote
08-07-2017 , 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDHarrison
Flatting AA in position can be a way to exploit a player who makes the mistake of double barreling too often on the flop and turn.
Good point.... Generally, I will try to flat AA in situations versus certain players, i.e. players who are good enough to understand that my flats in those spots should not include AA and those where slow play should pay off in the long run. Regardless, I have to take a deep swallow sometimes and realize that in situations where I flat AA after a bet (versus re-raising) I will often have to make semi-difficult folds and difficult folds.
Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote
08-07-2017 , 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasKK
Good point.... Generally, I will try to flat AA in situations versus certain players, i.e. players who are good enough to understand that my flats in those spots should not include AA and those where slow play should pay off in the long run. Regardless, I have to take a deep swallow sometimes and realize that in situations where I flat AA after a bet (versus re-raising) I will often have to make semi-difficult folds and difficult folds.


Amen. He speaks the truth here. Have to be able to fold it, and sometimes fold the best hand by doing so.


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Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote
08-08-2017 , 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FindNameHere
Personally think you should be given green, or some great poster award.
Just my 2c
A cheque to cover your expenses is in the post.
Flatting AA vs open raise?  (as per Applications of NLH) Quote

      
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