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Old 05-30-2020, 07:55 AM   #1
ggwpnore
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Edge in pushfold

Situation:hu,stacks=10bb
How much edge u add and why?What if stacks are 20bb?I'll post what i'm thinking,but at first i would like to listen to your thoughts.
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:25 PM   #2
getmeoffcompletely
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Re: Edge in pushfold

HU is not push fold until you reach 5bb. If you're playing only push fold you're giving up an insane amount of EV.
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Old 05-30-2020, 10:07 PM   #3
hyperknit
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Re: Edge in pushfold

Limping buttons becomes ok somewhere in there
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Old 05-31-2020, 04:28 AM   #4
ggwpnore
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Re: Edge in pushfold

I've heard about that, though up to the 7bb stack.But it doesn’t matter, you can split your range and consider the one you push.
So, Edge IMO is just a tool that is needed due to uncertainty:
1)we can make a mistake with the opp's calling range,so we set the edge.
2) the opp can start expanding the call, which we don’t want him to do.This will especially manifest itself against the tight one, since there + ev push in a vacuum is any two. After 5 consecutive pushes,what do you think will happen most often? In both points,the bottom of our range (which can be huge) goes -EV.
3) many players talk about the "future ev." Personally, I think that we should look at the type of opp, moreover, we are talking about his push, not call. And since tights push tighter and loose more wider,then against the first ones we set a bigger edge, simply because they will give us more time to see this “better ev".
Main question-how to turn all this info into specific numbers?
There are also 2 additional questions:
1)Are there any differences in the push spectrum in hu and in e.g. 4-max,if we exclude ICM and ante factors? I mean "blind turnover". We will often find ourselves in blinds in hu than in 4 -Max. Do we have to expand our push because of this?
2)Do you agree,that in such stacks the calling range in hu is 25-45%?
There are many factors,that I don’t even realize.Maybe even reasons above are fake..
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Old 05-31-2020, 05:05 AM   #5
tombos21
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Re: Edge in pushfold

Situation 1: Hero is in the SB playing OOP vs the BB
Game: 3-max SNG
Stack depths: 8bb, 10bb, 12bb, 15bb, 17bb, 20bb & 25bb
Blinds: 0.5bb/1bb
Players: 3 (no ante)
Pre-flop: (1.5bb) BN folds and the action is on Hero in the SB. He can fold, limp,
raise to 2bb, to 2.5bb, to 3bb, or push all-in.

Situation 2: Hero is on the BN playing IP vs the BB
Game: Heads-up SNG
Stack depths: 8bb, 10bb, 12bb, 15bb, 17bb, 20bb & 25bb
Blinds: 0.5bb/1bb
Players: 2 (no ante)
Pre-flop: (1.5bb) Hero is first to act on the BN. He can fold, limp, raise to 2bb, to
2.5bb, to 3bb, or push.



(Modern Theory of Poker - Acevadeo. Pg 114)


The above chart compares the EV of a push/fold strategy against a more complex strategy. As you can see, below 8bb effective the EV difference is negligible. When you're this shallow you should only be pushing or folding.

Keep in mind that push/fold strategies require the tightest ranges. As stacks get deeper, a more complex strategy will allow you to enter the pot with a wider range.

---------------

Regarding your quesitons:

Quote:
1)We can make a mistake with the opp's calling range,so we set the edge.
No idea what this means.

Quote:
2) the opp can start expanding the call, which we don’t want him to do.This will especially manifest itself against the tight one, since there + ev push in a vacuum is any two. After 5 consecutive pushes,what do you think will happen most often? In both points,the bottom of our range (which can be huge) goes -EV.
I think you misunderstand how push-fold works. You cannot push any two cards in a vacuum unless villain is overfolding and stacks are short enough. A proper push-fold strategy is not exploitable, (however it's not necessarily optimal either).

Quote:
3) many players talk about the "future ev." Personally, I think that we should look at the type of opp, moreover, we are talking about his push, not call. And since tights push tighter and loose more wider,then against the first ones we set a bigger edge, simply because they will give us more time to see this “better ev".
Google "GTO vs Exploitative strategy".

Quote:
4)Are there any differences in the push spectrum in hu and in e.g. 4-max,if we exclude ICM and ante factors? I mean "blind turnover". We will often find ourselves in blinds in hu than in 4 -Max. Do we have to expand our push because of this?
In general, the more players left to act, the tighter you need to be. The less players left to act, the looser you need to be. So you would push less hands opening the CO in a 4max game than you would pushing the BTN in a HU game. Take a look at any push-fold chart to see what I mean. Antes tend to bloat the pot and encourage wider ranges.

Quote:
2)Do you agree,that in such stacks the calling range in hu is 25-45%?
If you're not considering ICM then the calling range is simply whatever has correct pot odds. For example, consider a HU game, villain shoves 10bb on the BTN, we need to call 9bb on the BB. Therefore we could call with any hand that has at least (9/20 = 45% equity).

Last edited by tombos21; 05-31-2020 at 05:22 AM.
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Old 06-01-2020, 03:54 AM   #6
ggwpnore
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Re: Edge in pushfold

That graph only shows just average EV of mixed strategy compare to pushfold.I'm not sure i have that advantage in 15-8bb stacks.The difference in postflop EV between 3-max and hu is just because we are IP/OOP?Then it's useless..Again,it doesn't matter.We only try to analyse pushfold part of range now.
Quote:
No idea what this means.
Edge=how much you want to win in avg from your push.So if you think opp calls 25%,but his true range=35% and if u set your edge=+0,1bb/hand,the bottom of your range will go -EV,bc u push any two.To avoid this u set more edge=narrow down
your push range.It's a work outside tables.
Quote:
I think you misunderstand how push-fold works. You cannot push any two cards in a vacuum unless villain is overfolding and stacks are short enough. A proper push-fold strategy is not exploitable, (however it's not necessarily optimal either).
i'm not beginner though play micro and did all work in pf calc+equilabexactly,i dont want gto,i want max exploit.25% call isn't overfolding?U need to suggest opp's calling range anyway or it's just fortune telling.And for insurance u set edge,bc he can begin calling wider.
Quote:
Google "GTO vs Exploitative strategy".
Would be good if u explain with own words,bc i dont get what does this have to do with
what I wrote.
Quote:
In general, the more players left to act, the tighter you need to be. The less players left to act, the looser you need to be. So you would push less hands opening the CO in a 4max game than you would pushing the BTN in a HU game. Take a look at any push-fold chart to see what I mean. Antes tend to bloat the pot and encourage wider ranges.
we are on SB in both cases.
Quote:
If you're not considering ICM then the calling range is simply whatever has correct pot odds. For example, consider a HU game, villain shoves 10bb on the BTN, we need to call 9bb on the BB. Therefore we could call with any hand that has at least (9/20 = 45% equity).
his calling range,not his eq..
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Old 06-02-2020, 05:09 AM   #7
tombos21
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Re: Edge in pushfold

I think you will find this article very useful.

https://www.dandbpoker.com/magazine/...ve-play-vs-gto

Whenever you try to exploit your opponent, you open yourself up to be counter-exploited.



Take a look at the bottom row of this chart (15bb deep). The SB is up against a particularly tight BB who only calls 14%.

If the SB exploits BB by shoving any two cards, they would win 29.4bb/100.
However, If the BB adjusts and counters by calling wider, then you would lose 62.4bb/100.

This exploit can backfire on you quickly. I think you know this already.

Last edited by tombos21; 06-02-2020 at 05:15 AM.
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Old 06-02-2020, 01:06 PM   #8
ggwpnore
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Re: Edge in pushfold

good article,mb we need some golden mean
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