There is a sort of consensus on this board that pot limit is the most skillful variant of big-bet hold'em poker. This is of course because there are times (most notably before the flop and on the flop) where you can shut out the other players by making a large overbet. This is a viable strategy when the stacks are somewhat shallow and does take away some of the play on later streets. However, if the stacks are very deep it is almost impossible to shut out anyone.

So, does playing very deep make no limit the more skillful game?

i dont have an answer

the more ammo the more room to work with

I would think pot limit awards more skill since, with caller always getting at least 2:1 pot odds, playing more often requires a multi-street strategy.

Do you play deep games? How often does someone bet more than the pot? Not very often! So, most of the time the caller is getting at least 2:1 pot odds.

Did you think of that yourself?

disregard

No limit and Pot limit are very similar where It doesnt matter that much imo.

Yes, but where they are dissimilar is a very big difference. In PL it is much harder to price out draws early in the hand and more difficult to shut people out PF. These two factors often make the river more difficult to play. Even in very deep NL you can push PF and shut people out, although this is seldom done with a stack over 200bb, it is still an option.

Pot-limit gets more complex the deeper you get compared with NL.

It's not just about "shutting out" draws to take down the pot. It's about manipulating the pot size to create a favorable stack-to-pot ratio.

For example, top pair top kicker is tough to play deep (in either PL or NL), which is why the authors of Professional No-Limit Hold'em (PNLH) suggest overbetting preflop to make the pot large relative to the effective stacks.

The reason for this is to simplify your decision making. It is much easier to commit when the pot is huge compared to your stack. And when it is easy to commit, clearly your decision is easier, i.e., the game is less complex.

On the other hand, in PL, you don't have to option of overbetting the pot, which makes tptk much harder to play. Thus your decision is more difficult, i.e., the game is more complex. However, if the game is deep, I suspect that there would be much more 3betting, which would have the effect of making tptk easier to play also.



Depends on the players and venue.

I do know that PNLH is a widely read and highly praised book. So I assume that someone is consciously using those strategies.

Overbetting preflop seems more common in live games than online. (Maybe because there is no convenient "pot" button) I remember a thread where someone said how the uncapped 5/10 NL at commerce had standard open raises that were overbets. This makes sense, since people play deep in those games and they're hitting the right stack/pot ratio by doing so.

In any case, NL allows you to simplify your decisions, therefore making the game less complex in a lot of spots.

Of course, there are situations when an overbet can create a tough decision (such as a river bet), but I would think that this factor does not outweigh the increased post-flop play that PL produces.


In short, yeah, the Europeans got this one right -- pot limit is a superior form. Now we just need antes and a rule that says you have to use both hole cards. Then the game will be perfected.

... on a related note

pokerroad radio "cash plays" (11/4/08) listen to 18:30 - 20:00.

Talks about how training sites teach weak players how to build the pot preflop to make post-flop play easier. Concludes that good players are loosing their edge when weak players do this, which makes the 100bb game "play like a 40bb game."

http://www.pokerroad.com/cash_plays/11-4-08/

Skill > no limit > pot limit > limit

Skill has more skill than no limit?

By the way, I'm pretty sure the ranking of the NL/PL games relative to limit depends on depth. I think that 20bb NL/PL games are less skillful than limit game. In fact, I wonder if 33bb NL/PL is less skillful as well.

Limit is MUCH more skillful than 33bb NL imo.

if PL took the most skill wouldn't the best players solely play PLH

i think limit is just theoretically different from NL.

it's almost as different as comparing omaha and holdem.

Just curious, any reason you picked 33bb and not 30-or-40?

I'm obsessive-compulsive and have to repeat odd numbers. It's a problem I had since 55th grade.


The 1/3 NL game at the local casino has a $100 max buyin.

Definitely 33bb. Definitely.

Off topic: How deep does the 1/3NL game get late into the night, usually?

Oh, they're usually good, even early in the night. The problem is you have to be super patient with a 33bb stack. Keep topping off, wait to double up and hope there are decent stacks at your table.