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Old 08-31-2021, 10:41 PM   #1
Manimal88
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What if there range is different

If I am BTN face a SB 3b and call,They bet bet jam, asume I have a perfect PF range and play perfect post flop(assuming both players have GTO ranges), However they are a bit nitty and 3b a tighter than optimal range pf but they play their range perfect postflop.

So obv they will lose EV by not 3betting enough PF, but how do we know that that is enough to compensate for me calling down against a tighter range?

Last edited by Manimal88; 08-31-2021 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 08-31-2021, 11:08 PM   #2
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Re: What if there range is different

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how do we know that that is enough to compensate for me calling down against a tighter range?
Because if it wasn't enough to compensate, then it wouldn't be a GTO strategy. That's built into the very definition of Nash Equilibrium. You can measure it with solvers.

Here's a better way to think about it. Imagine that you are forced to play a fixed strategy forever. Your opponent knows exactly what your strategy is in every spot (clairvoyant) and they can adjust to exploit you however they want, whenever they want, you just have to sit there and take it.

What strategy do you choose to lose the least amount of money against all of your opponent's potential strategies? What fixed strategy can withstand a value-heavy nit barreling only the nuts, as well as a crazy maniac bluffing any two? What fixed strategy performs well against the guy that always calls your bluffs, while simultaneously performing well against the guy that never calls your bluffs? What strategy can handle the guy that always slowplays his value and barrels his bluffs, and also the guy that always barrels their value and checks their air. The answer is GTO.

That said, if you know they're underbluffing then obviously you adjust to that. But you don't always know, and your adjustments open you up to counter-exploitation.

Last edited by tombos21; 08-31-2021 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 09-01-2021, 07:33 AM   #3
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Re: What if there range is different

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Originally Posted by Manimal88 View Post
If I am BTN face a SB 3b and call,They bet bet jam, asume I have a perfect PF range and play perfect post flop(assuming both players have GTO ranges), However they are a bit nitty and 3b a tighter than optimal range pf but they play their range perfect postflop.

So obv they will lose EV by not 3betting enough PF, but how do we know that that is enough to compensate for me calling down against a tighter range?
It is enough to compensate, but that doesn't matter.
You should still try to improve your EV over GTO whenever possible
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Old 09-06-2021, 01:14 AM   #4
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Re: What if there range is different

I still don’t quite understand this. Say, I have set my solver for a specific spot. It doesn’t matter if the opponents range is wider or tighter? I just stick with my solution for whatever range I have defined?
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Old 09-06-2021, 04:06 AM   #5
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Re: What if there range is different

If they 3bet a really strong range there's not really a way to compensate in future streets. Normally the compensation would come from them not having enough bluffs and your weak showdown hands being able to realize equity. But if we imagine a nitty opponent that only 3bets value then he will just blast you off almost every time and yes if you look at that single node you will never realize the EV that you should with a GTO vs GTO range scenario.

However that still doesn't mean you are getting exploited. Whenever an opponent gains more EV than GTO at a particular node, he is doing so by sacrificing even more EV in other nodes. To stay with your example: Yes his nitty 3bets will own you in the 3bet node if you respond with a GTO range, but him not 3betting wide enough will mean he gets owned even harder in the RFI node. Meaning all your GTO ~0EV RFIs will actually become very profitable opens, since they will very rarely get blown off their equity before the flop. And because there are very very few hands that actually want to see a 3bet it means that overall you still win.

This is not to say that you should be a robot and keep calling down nits with GTO ranges, but that even if you did so, they would not be exploiting you. You always need to look at the total game tree. And looking at the big picture is doubly useful if you do plan on exploiting, because now we know that not only can we exploit them by simply folding to their 3bets, but we can also widen our opening range.
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Old 09-14-2021, 02:15 PM   #6
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Re: What if there range is different

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I still don’t quite understand this. Say, I have set my solver for a specific spot. It doesn’t matter if the opponents range is wider or tighter? I just stick with my solution for whatever range I have defined?
Well solvers in 2021 aren't perfect, but in practice still significantly stronger than any human player. So lets say in theory you follow the solution perfectly and your opponent follows it perfectly, you obviously breakeven. However, any deviation, whether they are playing too loose or too tight, by your opponent makes you profit. Typically the more they deviate, the "worse" they are playing, and the more you profit.

Of course no human is capable of perfectly replicating it so you should always seek to increase your edge in practice (i.e., "this guy never bluffs so I'm gonna overfold vs. him compared to solver", or "this guy never folds so I'm not gonna bluff")
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Old 09-16-2021, 04:52 PM   #7
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Re: What if there range is different

^thanks
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Old 09-17-2021, 03:40 PM   #8
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Re: What if there range is different

PIO has a node locking feature where you can input the sb's strategy and calculate the best way to play against it, instead of it calculating the equilibrium strategy like usual.

You still make $ when your opponents deviate from equilibrium but you make more when you adjust properly to their deviations. But also, by doing that, you are deviating the equilibrium yourself and if you are incorrect about your opponent's strategy or if they adjust to you then you could find yourself being exploited instead of the other way around.
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Old 09-22-2021, 10:57 AM   #9
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Re: What if there range is different

There’s an awful lot of talk about not getting exploited in these answers. It seems to be 1 thing GTO’ers are most proud of, their supposed inability to be exploited. I say ‘supposed’ because I’ve seen GTO ranges calling for playing 55% of hands from the BB versus a BN steal. Is this really not exploitable? We must be defining this term differently.

Every time I hear this, I can’t help but thinking that 1) we are all getting exploited all the time. This is poker. It’s unavoidable that we will fold to bluffs once in a while or get trapped by a better hand once in a while. There is no possible way to “never get exploited.” Also, 2) no one plays perfect GTO and that includes you, me and our opponents. We are all deviating anyway, as we should be. 3) the goal of poker is not to “avoid getting exploited.” The goal is to make money. It’s ok to overfold and it’s ok to raise more often than what is considered optimal, it’s ok to use more than 1 bet size. It is ok to get it exploited. It’s ok if that happens. What we should be trying to do is figure out the best way to make money against these game conditions and against these specific opponents. And that, is not always some rigid GTO starting range.
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Old 09-22-2021, 11:02 AM   #10
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Re: What if there range is different

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Originally Posted by Magnum1111 View Post
There’s an awful lot of talk about not getting exploited in these answers. It seems to be 1 thing GTO’ers are most proud of, their supposed inability to be exploited. I say ‘supposed’ because I’ve seen GTO ranges calling for playing 55% of hands from the BB versus a BN steal. Is this really not exploitable? We must be defining this term differently.

Every time I hear this, I can’t help but thinking that 1) we are all getting exploited all the time. This is poker. It’s unavoidable that we will fold to bluffs once in a while or get trapped by a better hand once in a while. There is no possible way to “never get exploited.” Also, 2) no one plays perfect GTO and that includes you, me and our opponents. We are all deviating anyway, as we should be. 3) the goal of poker is not to “avoid getting exploited.” The goal is to make money. It’s ok to overfold and it’s ok to raise more often than what is considered optimal, it’s ok to use more than 1 bet size. It is ok to get it exploited. It’s ok if that happens. What we should be trying to do is figure out the best way to make money against these game conditions and against these specific opponents. And that, is not always some rigid GTO starting range.
Why would 55% of hands be more exploitsble than any other percentage?

GTO cannot be exploited full stop. Good news is no human plays GTO, and most money isn't made by imitating gto
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Old 09-22-2021, 11:29 AM   #11
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Re: What if there range is different

Cold-calling with J3s and Q5o out of position against an aggressive opponent in a raised pot doesn’t sound like a good way to make money to me. But if PIO says so ….,

OP original question was about a guy who he knows has a nitty range, 3 betting him. Does he really play his pre planned GTO ranges in response? No. The original ranges don’t make sense anymore because the opponent is not playing GTO in response to your open.

I guess you are right Anero in the way you phrased it and that is that all ranges are exploitable, in different ways, and some more than others.
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Old 09-22-2021, 01:31 PM   #12
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Re: What if there range is different

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Originally Posted by Magnum1111 View Post
Cold-calling with J3s and Q5o out of position against an aggressive opponent in a raised pot doesn’t sound like a good way to make money to me. But if PIO says so ….,

OP original question was about a guy who he knows has a nitty range, 3 betting him. Does he really play his pre planned GTO ranges in response? No. The original ranges don’t make sense anymore because the opponent is not playing GTO in response to your open.

I guess you are right Anero in the way you phrased it and that is that all ranges are exploitable, in different ways, and some more than others.
Where have you seen a sim that calls Q5o vs BTN lol
And why would it matter if it sounds good to you or not?

I don't disagree that you shouldn't play GTO, but if you make a claim that's plain wrong I'll point it out
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Old 09-22-2021, 02:16 PM   #13
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Re: What if there range is different

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There’s an awful lot of talk about not getting exploited in these answers. It seems to be 1 thing GTO’ers are most proud of, their supposed inability to be exploited.
Did you actually read the responses? Everyone here said you should adjust if people are clearly making mistakes. But you should understand the risks of doing so.

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Originally Posted by Magnum1111 View Post
I say ‘supposed’ because I’ve seen GTO ranges calling for playing 55% of hands from the BB versus a BN steal. Is this really not exploitable? We must be defining this term differently.
...
Cold-calling with J3s and Q5o out of position against an aggressive opponent in a raised pot doesn’t sound like a good way to make money to me. But if PIO says so ….,
What sims are you looking at? Please show us what the optimal BB defense looks like.

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Originally Posted by Magnum1111 View Post
Every time I hear this, I can’t help but thinking that 1) we are all getting exploited all the time. This is poker. It’s unavoidable that we will fold to bluffs once in a while or get trapped by a better hand once in a while. There is no possible way to “never get exploited.”
"Exploited" doesn't mean folding to bluff or getting beat by better value. It means losing value with your entire strategy.
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Old 09-22-2021, 04:05 PM   #14
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Re: What if there range is different

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Where have you seen a sim that calls Q5o vs BTN lol
And why would it matter if it sounds good to you or not?

I don't disagree that you shouldn't play GTO, but if you make a claim that's plain wrong I'll point it out
Well you’re right, Q8o is what I’m looking at.
And yes, whether it sounds good to me or not is irrelevant to everybody but me I guess.
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Old 09-22-2021, 04:14 PM   #15
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Re: What if there range is different

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Well you’re right, Q8o is what I’m looking at.
And yes, whether it sounds good to me or not is irrelevant to everybody but me I guess.
if GTO calls Q8o it's your burden to come up with an explanation for why you shouldn't do that, rather than assuming your bias is correct and GTO is doing something whacky. If you don't have that explanation then your deviation is probably just a leak and not an exploit.
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Old 09-22-2021, 04:20 PM   #16
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Re: What if there range is different

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Originally Posted by tombos21 View Post
Did you actually read the responses? Everyone here said you should adjust if people are clearly making mistakes. But you should understand the risks of doing so.


What sims are you looking at? Please show us what the optimal BB defense looks like.



"Exploited" doesn't mean folding to bluff or getting beat by better value. It means losing value with your entire strategy.

I’m looking at Acevedo’s book, which is a great book. He calls for 3 betting with 13.4% and calling with another 43.4% for a total defense range versus a button steal of 56.8%.
Anero is right that doesn’t include Q5o it is almost all but the very weakest suited cards plus Off suit Aces snd Bwy’s K8,Q8,J8, T8 and a few more.
I guess my point is that I hear frequently, “my range is unexploitable.” That doesn’t really seem to be correct for the reasons I already stated.
Seems like nobody is playing their GTO ranges anyway once the game starts, which is also my point.
I don’t want to argue. I just think many people overestimate the protection they receive from playing GTO open ranges.
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Old 09-22-2021, 05:35 PM   #17
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Re: What if there range is different

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I’m looking at Acevedo’s book, which is a great book. He calls for 3 betting with 13.4% and calling with another 43.4% for a total defense range versus a button steal of 56.8%.
Anero is right that doesn’t include Q5o it is almost all but the very weakest suited cards plus Off suit Aces snd Bwy’s K8,Q8,J8, T8 and a few more.
I guess my point is that I hear frequently, “my range is unexploitable.” That doesn’t really seem to be correct for the reasons I already stated.
Seems like nobody is playing their GTO ranges anyway once the game starts, which is also my point.
I don’t want to argue. I just think many people overestimate the protection they receive from playing GTO open ranges.
I enjoyed that book.

You can play an unexploitable preflop strategy and butcher it postflop. That's certainly possible. That doesn't make the preflop strategy bad.

Let's talk about what makes that range "unexploitable". That doesn't mean it can't ever lose. It means that if BB were to defend tighter, BTN could make more money by opening wider; and vice-versa. It's the equilibrium strategy because no player can adjust to improve their payoff.

Keep in mind a lot of those BB defends are just trying to do better than losing 1bb. The bar is pretty low when you have a discount into the pot.
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Old 09-23-2021, 03:23 PM   #18
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Re: What if there range is different

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Originally Posted by Magnum1111 View Post
Cold-calling with J3s and Q5o out of position against an aggressive opponent in a raised pot doesn’t sound like a good way to make money to me. But if PIO says so ….,

OP original question was about a guy who he knows has a nitty range, 3 betting him. Does he really play his pre planned GTO ranges in response? No. The original ranges don’t make sense anymore because the opponent is not playing GTO in response to your open.

I guess you are right Anero in the way you phrased it and that is that all ranges are exploitable, in different ways, and some more than others.
You dont need to make money to defend the bb. You just need to lose less than you lose by folding, which is 1bb.
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