Hello,

Before I start with the rules I wanna say THANK YOU to all people who were responding to my earlier threads. It made me think, progress and lead me to this (massive - according to my observation and analysis) game:

Short Deck Infernal (NL)

- Players use exactly the same 5 cards as in normal Short Deck, but to choose the winner they use the lowest card of their 5 card hand. Player who has lower card wins the showdown. If both players have the card of the same value the showdown is won by the stronger hand (according to the hand ranking).

- (IMPORTANT!) In a A6789 straight or straight flush the lowest card is "6". Ace does behave as a 5 but it's still an ace.

Example: TT7(7)K wins with TT(7)7J, KK8(8)A wins with KK9(9)A

It's simple as that. One simple rule changes the game 180 degrees. What's very important it fixes the pre-flop equities and makes them more polarized and more suitable for No Limit. The best hand is pocket 66 - it's very strong, but the opponent is never drawing dead pre-flop. Antes will be probably not needed any longer.

If you vote for classic Short Deck please explain why do you prefer the original game. Please use the deck when analyzing my game - it takes a while to get used to. Have fun !!

Wouldn't the equities be symmetrical to the original game? I don't see how this makes equities more polarized. It's the exact same game.

You can imagine shortdeck played as a game with letters, A/B/C/D/E/F/G/H. Now assign the strongest card to A, and the weakest card to H.

The original short-deck and your new version are identical games because they can be mapped to each other using the method above. What am I missing?

@tombos21 It's a completely different game with different equities The fact the players use the same 5 cards as in original Short Deck doesn't mean it's the same game. You look at the value of a single card first - that's what makes it different from the original. You use the hand ranking only if both players have the same card.

I'm not sure what you are missing, but you must be missing something when reading the rules. If I understand your method, it's about reversing the card values only. It's not the same thing.

66 in my game is much stronger than AA in Short Deck. Same thing with other low pocket pairs. Also other good hands like 67s, 79s have a bigger advantage over weaker hands.

Ok I see now. So the strength of a hand has nothing to do with how rare it is. AAAAK would be the nut low. Any 6 is close to the nuts.

That seems problematic. Weaker hands need to be able to outdraw stronger hands or the game becomes quite stale. I guess you could pray for a 6 to land on the board so your hand strength would play.

That's right. This is why your hole cards should be suited/connected/paired. Even if opponent flops a pair of sixes you then have a chance to hit a backdoor flush/straight/boat with a "6 low".

Besides, a strong hand can get weaker on the turn or river if a "chicken card" comes. A very good hand plays like a draw then - you hit it or not. Counting "chicken card" outs is important.

Player with a worse hand on the flop almost always has some chance to win although sometimes the chance is quite thin. But I think most of the time the flop equities run quite close.

Any 6 is close to the nuts, but making a pair of sixes doesn't really mean that much. In a 6-9 handed game your 6x is very likely to be up against some other 6x and it is very unlikely that both players will split the pot. Only one of them will win, so your 6x doesn't give you a guarantee that your hand (a pair of sixes for example) will be very strong. You might be up against a 66 with a better kicker, two pair or a 6 low straight, etc.

Besides, about 40% of the time the hand strength (hand ranking) will matter, so the game won't eventually be that stale as you think.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I really think my point of view makes sense here.

You'll need three of those to land on the board to be 100% sure the hand strength will play.

Let's say making a pair of sixes on the flop is a problem for your opponent (small chance to win). How often does this happen - once in a 10-15 hands ? Does this really make the game stale ?

Original Short Deck has one serious problem - in a MTT on the bubble, close pre-flop equities allow the big stack to go all in pre-flop all the time with any hand. This continuous jamming forces other players to fold. I think that playing a broken game on a worldwide scale is nothing good. I hope you consider this when voting on the poll.

Question - what's necessary to be able to construct ranges in a poker game ? (I need to know if it's possible to do that in my game)

I'm still convinced that my game is better than the original.

This sentence is not true and I think it may have discouraged people from using the cards, reading this thread and posting.

Here's the proof:

You're dealt: [6s 9h]
Board is [Ac 6h 7d 6c Qc]

You have a three of a kind sixes, but you're beat by:
- any 2 clubs (flush)
- 67, 6Q, 6A, AA, 77, QQ (full house)
- 89 (straight)
- 6K (three of a kind with better kicker)

The game deserves being analyzed with cards, at least. I think none of the readers have done that.

Here's some more detailed analysis that proves the game will be far from "stale":

I assume by a "stale strategy" you mean playing any 6x and if it makes a pair/two pair, extracting maximum value from your opponent's stack. If you're lucky you will hit a 6 on the flop, but it's more less 30-40% chance you will hit a problematic card on the turn that will make your 66 less secure. Look at these 3 random 6xx flops:

1) flop [6d Tc Qd] - any diamond or 7 or 8 or 9 will be problematic on the turn for your 6x
2) flop [6d 6c Ts] - any ten or 7 or 8 or 9 will be problematic
3) flop [6d 7d Ks] - any diamond or A or 8 or 9 will be problematic

Most of the time you won't even hit a 6 on the flop, so hoping you'll hit it on the turn or river is not enough to make a call. Same thing with pre-flop. You can call a raise, but what if you don't hit a 6 on the flop ? You'll be probably forced to fold on the flop. Only if your 6x is suited/connected/paired it will make sense to continue.

I would rather say it has "little to do" with how rare it is. About 40% of the time the hand strength will play.

In normal game, first you look at the hand ranking and then, if it's the same type of hand you look at the card values. In my game the order is reversed - first you look at the card value and then (if it's the same) you look at the hand rarity.

Some people may say it's against the norm or against the rules, but the truth is - the game designer can do anything with the rules as long as it plays well. And SDI will play well.

ESTIMATED PRE-FLOP EQUITIES:

78os vs 89os => 55/45%
78os vs 8Tos => 60/40%
67os vs 89os => 65/35%
6Kos vs 6Jos => 75/25%
77 vs 89s => 70/30%
66 vs 77 => 80/20%

This looks pretty good, I've just finished the counting. I've chosen the most interesting examples, I think. The numbers seem to be much more vibrant than original Short Deck pre-flop. Let me know what you think and please vote on the poll !

OK, so due to the very weak response in this thread, I have a little prize for you which should encourage you ... but I will reveal it on one condition:

- if at least 2 new users write a short review (opinion + explanation, can be 3 or 4 sentences total) of my game SDI

I will reveal then a cool secret about TEXAS HOLD'EM - something you won't find anywhere on the internet, something probably nobody in the world have noticed (or talked about) before. It's what I call a Texas Hold'em "author's signature". I found it a few years ago accidentally. It's a really cool stuff you will never forget. And I promise - it's not a joke.

OK, so I've read through this thread, and your other more recent thread about holdem with a time thing. And honestly, this one is better I think. Original shortdeck is shite, just because it's so simple. It was probably interesting for recs until it got solved, but now that it's solved, I'm not so sure. And it doesn't have anywhere near the complexity of NLHE.

Honestly, I can't actually say whether this one is better or not than shortdeck. I don't have a deck of cards to try it out either (ironic seen as I'm posting on a poker forum). But my guess is that some of the issues with this format are the importance of the 6, and the importance this has if one hits on flop, turn, or river. Basically, if a 6 appears on the flop, turn, or river, it will lead to an equity reversal between the previous street raiser and caller, because now the low doesn't count, only hand strength. Maybe this would work better as a hi-lo variant? Also, why use this as a shortdeck game, rather than a holdem game (i.e. play with the full deck)?

You seem to have a lot of ideas about how to create an interesting poker game. My guess is that you have a much bigger potential market in trying to create an interesting board game. Might be worth trying that?

@pjj Hehe, thanks. I almost forgot about this game because of "Zeiter" and the poll results. I'll take the deck and look at it again later, so that I can say more. The only thing I remember is that the time of reading your hand strength is not as short as original Short Deck or NLH, so it's a bit more difficult game. This is why I stopped thinking about it.