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Old 04-27-2011, 07:19 PM   #26
QuadLaser
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

I am in the BB and have a small pair/suited broadway/some other hand I want to defend.

UTG raises to 3x

I call.

It's HU to the flop.

I am checking on the flop 100% of the time, I don't have a donking range. How is checking in the dark affecting my play here?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of villains do this and just toss in the 2 chips to call the PFR and announce "check dark".

I never read into it and never consider them a donk for doing it. If anything its speeding up the game.
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Old 04-28-2011, 10:14 AM   #27
Mat the Gambler
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Whenever someone checks in the dark against me, I always 100% of the time bet in the dark.
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:45 PM   #28
IIDXias
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadLaser View Post
I am checking on the flop 100% of the time, I don't have a donking range. How is checking in the dark affecting my play here?
It's worth keeping in mind though that checking in the dark doesn't tell your opponent anything, while on the other hand if you check 100% of the time there but after seeing a flop he might assume you missed it (if he's real bad). I play very similar to you, check nearly 100% of the time OOP and don't have much of a donking range there. But I'm constantly amazed how many bad players will take that as a sign of weakness and bluff at it, even when they've seen me check in that exact same spot over and over again. If you check in the dark, on the other hand, you don't give these bad players a chance to mistake that for weakness.
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Old 04-28-2011, 02:35 PM   #29
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

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Originally Posted by QuadLaser View Post
I am checking on the flop 100% of the time, I don't have a donking range. How is checking in the dark affecting my play here?
When you check in the dark, you are telling the villain that there is no flop you'd bet, that you'll check every flop.

When you don't check in the dark, unless villain magically knows you will always check, when you check, he can't know if it's
* because you missed
* because you plan to check-raise
* because you suck at poker and are passive
* because you always check
and therefore he has less information about you. He is left wondering if there's something about this flop, compared to other flops, that makes you check.

Your line if reasoning makes me think that you're playing 2nd level poker at best, where 1st level is "what is my hand", 2nd level is "what is his hand", and 3rd starts with "what does he think my hand is" (4th is what does he think I think his hand is, for example)

Finally, if you always check the flop, stop doing that.
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Old 04-28-2011, 02:45 PM   #30
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

why in the world would you be checking every flop here? I dont understand why you wouldnt be leading into the raiser sometimes with flopped trips or flopped set or even a big draw , saying your checking everytime is ridic, there is never a spot in poker you should be checking 100% of the time, its just foolish why would you check a board of say J 10 3 with 2 spades and you hold a set of 3s agaisnt a guy likely to raise a bet when you lead into him wether he has a hand or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadLaser View Post
I am in the BB and have a small pair/suited broadway/some other hand I want to defend.

UTG raises to 3x

I call.

It's HU to the flop.

I am checking on the flop 100% of the time, I don't have a donking range. How is checking in the dark affecting my play here?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of villains do this and just toss in the 2 chips to call the PFR and announce "check dark".

I never read into it and never consider them a donk for doing it. If anything its speeding up the game.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:38 PM   #31
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Jamie Gold check-raise-call in the dark pre-flop vs Farha in an episode of HSP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erNjXtuKawU

At the end Barry Greenstein told Jamie that he saved a lot of money.

lol.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:40 PM   #32
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

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Originally Posted by Mat the Gambler View Post
Whenever someone checks in the dark against me, I always 100% of the time bet in the dark.
and the purpose of checking dark is revealed
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:31 PM   #33
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Some people never donkbet (lead OOP after calling pf raise), so they check in the dark to avoid giving the impression that their check indicates they've missed the flop.
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:40 PM   #34
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
When you check in the dark, you are telling the villain that there is no flop you'd bet, that you'll check every flop.

Finally, if you always check the flop, stop doing that.
Checking to the raiser in a HU pot is practically a given in most low limit NL live games.

Lots of players do it, and some just do it dark, I was just giving an example of when someone could check dark and it really doesn't impact their game at all.

On another not, generally donk betting is playing out of flow and unless I have a ton of metagame or are playing someone terrible I never do it.

When its multi-way I almost always donk since I don't assume PFR will cbet nearly as often. Usually protecting my hand is more important than trying to get a c/r in or slowplaying with a c/c
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:41 PM   #35
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Quote:
Originally Posted by gitrjoda View Post
Some people never donkbet (lead OOP after calling pf raise), so they check in the dark to avoid giving the impression that their check indicates they've missed the flop.
Exactly.

When someone calls my PFR and checks to me on the flop. I make ZERO assumption that they are checking because they missed.

They are checking to me because I am the PFR.

Checking in the dark is the exact same thing.
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:44 PM   #36
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadLaser View Post
Checking to the raiser in a HU pot is practically a given in most low limit NL live games.
I know. That doesn't make it good to do it 100% of the time though.

Quote:
Lots of players do it, and some just do it dark, I was just giving an example of when someone could check dark and it really doesn't impact their game at all.
Clearly, if you intend to check no matter what comes out, then YOUR actions and thoughts are not affected by it. But your OPPONENTS are. Can you see how him knowing you'll check every flop gives more information than him not knowing?

Quote:
On another not, generally donk betting is playing out of flow and unless I have a ton of metagame or are playing someone terrible I never do it.
If you're playing some good, I think donking has some real merit, as well as when you're playing someone bad.
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:05 PM   #37
gitrjoda
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
Can you see how him knowing you'll check every flop gives more information than him not knowing?
This. Even if I'm donkbetting 0% of the time, I don't need my opponent to know that.
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:13 PM   #38
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Quote:
Originally Posted by gitrjoda View Post
This. Even if I'm donkbetting 0% of the time, I don't need my opponent to know that.
Agreed, if the opponent (PFR) doesnt know the "social contract" of checking to the PFR they may interpret the check (in the light) as weakness.
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Old 04-28-2011, 06:59 PM   #39
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

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Originally Posted by perplexed76 View Post
I saw Phil Helmuth doing it several times in different shows (HSP included)...
You also have seen Phil Helmuth lose over the long haul on different shows in cash games. He is a weak/tight player that just ain't cuttin it anymore.
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Old 04-29-2011, 02:44 AM   #40
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

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Originally Posted by Otompsett View Post
Most players who check dark, know that whether they hit the flop hard, or whiff the flop totally, they will be checking 100%. It's mostly used in big, multi-way flops. It has no benefit to the person doing it, expcept if they feel they might give off something when checking with a made hand, if they hadn't have checked in the dark.

It's pretty easy to play against these sort of players. Bet strong and hard if they're dark checking HU. Multiway, if they're dark checking, then raising, they're going to have a pretty huge hand.

And finally, you won't see many strong players do this.
Pretty much this.

Additionally, I think some players may think it give them an edge because they think that it could cause players to bet into them when they shouldn't because checking behind a dark check may feel like giving up on the pot to some players.
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:58 AM   #41
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

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Originally Posted by Lottery Larry View Post
Theory proven!

haha
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:13 PM   #42
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Theoretical concepts aside, in my experience in low and mid-stakes NLHE dark checks are simply hands that must drill the flop or aren't calling a bet, and it's done by weak players the vast majority of the time. I'm not commenting on other possible reasons to do it, or possible situations where more analysis of the situation is warranted. As a result of this, when weak players dark check pf, I will bet most of the time unless I flop a monstrosity and am just hoping he improves or bluffs at the pot on the turn.

That said, I haven't given it too much concentrated thought in-game, so I think I'll try to pay closer attention to who does it and when and see if this is poor observation on my part or not.

Oh, and there is no escaping the quad laser. Here it comes...





...wait for it.



It takes a while!

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Old 04-29-2011, 06:04 PM   #43
David Sklansky
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Why are you reading this? There is no reason to go past post six.
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Old 04-29-2011, 08:39 PM   #44
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Players check dark hoping that the opponent will check behind....


I decided to check dark on the river when I had QQ on a kxxx board hoping to get a free showdown...I did... with the Q on the river.

Never again.
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Old 04-29-2011, 11:20 PM   #45
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Checking dark means they don't like money.
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Old 04-30-2011, 12:17 AM   #46
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

I'm a guy who thinks checking in the dark is something that Bruce Springsteen did to Courtney Cox in 1984. "Hey Baby!"
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Old 05-01-2011, 10:34 AM   #47
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
Why are you reading this? There is no reason to go past post six.
As to me i don't have an answer... I continue watching HSP and Negreaunu doesn't seem to like money...
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Old 05-01-2011, 06:38 PM   #48
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

When someone anounce check in the dark I uasely think, cool big donk there.

Most often it is some tard who have seen pro's do it on television, and now think they are a pro too.

Why the hell whould you take away options from how you will play the hand before you know wich cards flop, thats just stupid.

Same goes for people who are stradling, and restradling all the time, on a live game that already have plenty of action.

Why the heel, would anyone raise OOP without seing their hand, in a live donk game where its like 99,9 % sure there will be multiply callers to any raise you may make while stradling, or just burning money paying a double blind each orbit OOP, without knowing their hole cards.

Again, its the same syndrome, a bunch of donks who have seen Phil ivey and his buddies do this, so they think they are cool when doing it.
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Old 05-01-2011, 08:17 PM   #49
Derrick Wong
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Lets be real....everyone here has checked in the dark at least one time during their poker career. How could you not? you saw PH do it on tv and it worked. Now we are more poker educated and know its a non-standard move used rarely to only induce mistakes from opponent.
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Old 05-02-2011, 07:40 PM   #50
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Re: The purpose of "check in the dark"

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
Why are you reading this? There is no reason to go past post six.
Because theres this thing called the metagame, and it dictates we sometimes do not make the GTO play and instead make a weaker one which we think will bring us even more $ in the future.

If we have reason to believe checking dark multiple times will cause an opponent to go into 100% cbet mode, then checking dark the 1st time with AA in a 3bet pot may be an error because he checks back, but after the 4th or 5th time when he starts responding with pot sized cbets, checking dark becomes the correct (most profitable) play.
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