Maybe i understood you wrong. I thought you suggested to look at off-equilibrium paths in the game-tree and check if the ranges that get there form some sort of stable equilibrium?

But re-reading your post i think you just meant that you want to plug Snowies ranges on the river into a solver to verify its river play? (I guess the "off-equilibrium" part in your post just tipped me off, still not quite sure what you mean there.)

yes i added the off-equilibrium part in parentheses to suggest that even if both strats form an equilibrium in the river sub-game, it's very unlikely that pot/stack sizes and river starting ranges actually lie on the GTO path - I should've left that out..

Thanks for the clarification.

I guess the only challenge will be to find a solver that works with Snowie's restriction regarding betsizes, where it needs to choose a single sizing for the entire range out of the allowed sizings.

My solver will just split the ranges when i allow multiple sizings, and i assume that's how most other implementations work as well.

true, i was just gonna plug it into CREV and see whether the EV's of both strats change a lot when using the max exploit tool. that's ofc very vague, but should still give an idea.

Simple and dumb question, since I don't know much about game theory.

Since exploitation is the key to win, why pokersnowie is trying to achive GTO gameplay?

If you're playing GTO you're not exploitable -> not beatable by anyone.
Exploitation is the key to maximize your win rate vs opponent's wrong strategies
but you'll get hurt if your opponent fixes his leak.
With GTO you're beating anyone -not by the maximum - but you beat them

This helps but it's not enough in order to understand...
What i'm missing is how can be found...

Let's say you are on the river and facing a shove, how can you play GTO without knowing ranges and frequecies?

Ranges do matter, their frequencies don't.

^ty

Yes, snowiest strategy is completely open. That's the point.

Afaik it doesn't, however, have its full strategy stored in a single file; to get that you'd have to manually look up every possible situation individually and copy & paste what snowie says it would do. But a file like that is what is pertinent in this discussion, because that's what would allow the exploitability of snowie's strategy to be measured and test how it does against other bots.

Such a file would be to large, so could never be made.

It would indeed be extremely large, but surely it's not impossible; there are already plenty of NLHE bots whose strategies are stored this way and have competed in the annual computer poker competition (ACPC).

It's not a file it's a DB or neural network or tree or whatever u want to call it.

Imagine you wanted a file of everything that is stored in your brain.

Poker snowie has created a perfect way to navigate this tree. You can look up any possible poker situation and see what range it has and what it will do with any part of its range. You can jump to any part of the tree and see any path how you could have gotten there and any path it can go with what part of its range.

it's like ur sitting in a running car and complaining that you can't move to point x.

You are talking about making a manual copy of snowies strategy when it is right in front of you. It's exactly what they are selling you.

If I can call it whatever I want to, I think I'll call it a file.

I didn't say snowie's strategy was stored as a file; I said it's not. Well, I'm sure the poker snowie team has it stored somewhere. It's just not publicly available as a single file.

It's like me complaining that I'm in a car and a guide is pointing out a bunch of locations to me one by one when what I really want is a map so I can see the entire area.

I didn't understand how Pokersnowie or another bot in the future will be able to solve the game...there is something I'm clearly missing, correct me where I'm wrong...

If player 1 is playing GTO, is unexploitable, so player 2 cannot exploit him.
However, in order to play GTO, player 1 must know player 2 range.

Now, for instance, player 1 opens UTG , player 2 calls top 50% on the BB. flop xxx, player 2 shove his entire range. Even if I don't know exactly how to do it, I think this spot is solvable... so player 1 can play GTO.
After some hands, same actions, but player 2 range changes, let's say he's calling with top 25% and bottom 25%, and obv player 1 don't know that. The solution is obv different so how can player 2 play GTO against the new unknown range?

This is false. GTO strategies are GTO independent of the opponent's strategy. The point of it being GTO is to be able to say that, no matter player 2's strategy (and thus range in any situation), a minimum EV is guaranteed (i.e. the GTO strategy cannot be exploited).

ok I understood, ty for the explanation, this is making more sense now.
However I got some problem visualizing how can be possibly be done... my example above, which is pretty basic, seems close to be unsolvable...

Your example is solvable. When player 2 changes his range, it doesn't matter that player 1 doesn't know this because even if he did he wouldn't change his strategy (assuming all he wants to do is play GTO). You wrote, "The solution is obv different," but it's not because, like I said in my previous post, GTO strategies are independent of the opponent's strategy.

yeah, I understood what I've missed ty man

Correct GTO means u dont need to know how ur opponent plays and u dont care because whatever oppnents do they cannot win against u.

If that is not true ur not playing GTO.

Ok if it is a file and the pokersnowie software is a file reader. The file is so large that they cant store it on ur computer but store it in a cloud.

But u can read any entry in your file with the software (for a fee).

So it is publicly available .

I never said each entry isn't publicly available. I said the strategy is not publicly available as a single file. Like I said earlier, that file is what's needed to be able to do things like compute the strategy's exploitability or see how it fares against other bots. I'm sure the poker snowie team has reasons for not making the file publicly available, but it's not impossible (as you seem to be suggesting) to make it so. It's up to the user to decide whether a file they want to download is too large or not. Further, since universities and even individuals who have entered the ACPC have their entire strategies for the bots they created stored in a single file on their computer, it doesn't seem like it would generally be the case that such a file would be "too large."

so you know that the strategy is publicly available u just dont like the format. okok.