This may be a repeat post, but how the F* do you explain to people who think poker == gambling (poker is same as slots, craps, BJack, Let it ride, Pai Gow, Roulette, video Poker, Caribbean Stud)? I'm putting together a list to explain to a friend of mine (i know i know, why would i try to educate the fish blah blah...he's my friend and isnt stupid, but doesnt seem to get how poker is different from roulette)


Some thoughts I've had:

Poker is mostly skill/Gambling is mostly (if not all) luck: In poker, you must make strategic decisions at every point in every hand. If at any point you don't like the action, you dont call the bet. Correct decision making is paramount. In most casino games you have one decision: How much to bet, and on what (some exceptions are like BlackJack and Caribbean Stud, or video poker, but not roulette, craps or slots).

In Poker, the player has a large amount of control/ Gambling the player has little or no control: In poker you have much control over the action through hand selection, bet sizing, the choice to call or fold. Just about the only thing you have no control over? The deal of the cards. In most casino games, you have very little control over anything except the size of the wager (and increasing this wager does nothing to affect your winning chances, unlike in poker [you can bet big to deny proper odds, or to bluff out an opponent]).

Poker is played against others/ and you may or may not have a mathematical edge/ Gambling is done against the house, who always has an edge: An expert on casino gambling once said (saw it in a show on Vegas) the house never offers you a bet it doesn't have and edge on. In Poker, the house is almost completely uninvolved, and is essentially renting you its tables and dealers for your personal use. In poker, your making decisions in a skill game against others who may be more or less skilled than you. The luck factor does nothing to change this in the long term.

In Poker, the long term is your friend/ In Gambling, you should quit while your ahead: In poker, if you are a winning player, the long term is your friend in that you will profit in the long run despite short-term swings. In gambling, should you make a large score, you should probably quit and never play again, because if you keep playing, you will lose it all back. You can't beat the math, essentially, in both cases.

Ill post more later, leave your thoughts, flames, calling me stupids, or your silence.

the best and simplest way i can explain it is if Poker was blackjack then you can see the dealers both cards before deciding.

a lot of people who hear about games like texas holdem for the first time figure that since the cards are dealt to you and you have no choice over them, it's all luck. just explain that the skill is in the betting, not the cards.

People consistently win. You don't play against the house. Blah blah blah whatever. I don't try to convince anyone ... that's often just a frustrating experiencethough really I haven't met anybody who really looks down at it too bad. Most people who know me, including everyone I care about, (except for maybe a few aunts and uncles who I only see a few times a year), haven't questioned it for a pretty long time since I've consistently made a good amount of $.

I get this angle. Its the "knowing smile" i can't stand.

Me: No you don't understand. I don't gamble, in fact i hate gambling. I play poker. Poker isn't gambling.

Friend: *knowing smile* Sure it isn't....

Me: *stabs with fork*

Edit: I also have a strange personality, where if I'm knowledgeable about something, I can't tolerate when people are ignorant about it (thankfully i've learned to keep my mouth shut when this behavior would be -EV for me )

Ask your friend how many professional roulette players there are and how many professional holdem players there are.

The best argument in your list is that poker players play against each other. This differentiates it from all other forms of common casino gambling (except for sports betting). But you need to combine it with your first argument about making decisions. Note that the house in all their common forms of gambling does not actually make any decisions. Therefore, the house can never make a mistake. Work with that and see what you come up with.

Challenge him to some deepstack fun!

Easily can be explained, that betting skill can overcome the variance of cards dealt.

Yeah... This is always a tough one lol. When I tell someone I play poker and I have won X amount and then they ask how much I lost. They think I am playing slots or something... It's sad.

PokerStarSteve
Please go to Brick and Mortar and click on the thread
$2/$5 Live NL in FL

And support my position that AQ is a fold here.
I have never asked for support on my positions before, but kindly get the tenor of the responses and see that these people are glorified roulette players playing poker.

Thank you

Just give your friend a simple example:

Throw a coin. Every time you win, he pays you two bucks. Everytime he wins, you pay him only one buck.

Ask him if he would agree on this deal. Naturally he will say no! Because in the long run he would lose money (-EV).

Same thing goes for poker. It´s all about making +EV decisions....

Assume there are 3 grades of players in the world.
C) Play any 2 cards that could make a 5 card hand and call even without proper odds.
B) Same as B but fold when according to pot odds.
A) Makes every decision based on long term EV using all available information.


If you populate a 6-man table full of Grade C players they are all gambling against the rake and hoping varience is in their favor. You would have to agree that all players would be gambling.

If you keep one C player and replace the others with B players. Then at least the C player would be gambling.

If you replace that C player with an A player, then all of the remaining B players would be gambling.

And finally if you replace all of the B players with A players then all players would be back to gambling.

The players felt what they were doing was playing poker.
In all cases one or more players at the table were gambling.

Unless you are more specific about the situation, you can't say poker isn't gambling.

poker is such a unique animal...which is why it is so great.

it is a blind zero sum game..which makes it strategic by nature and gambling by nature (chance of dealt cards). I will not try to calculate the percentage of skill to luck (60-40, 70-30), I am sure some of the mathematicians can ponder that question.

some reasoning I have come across and use to explain:

1. control: you can lose on purpose (try this with craps, roulette, slots, etc.)
2. playing opponents not the dealer/house, etc.
3. as one post stated, the skill is in the betting and manipulation of the pot, odds, other players.

the gambling factor or luck factor stems from the bad beats and variance obviously. not to take anything away from Eastgate but he did hit 3 (or 4?) sets in the final stages of the tournament...that is unbelievable chance, his 1 outer 6d was huge...his skill got him to that point but luck pulled him through.

if anyone has played scrabble, a similar analogy can be made...consistent players will score high due to skill but there is variance due to the letters randomly picked. sometimes you pick very usable letters other times you pick four "I" and three "A" and your opponent has a seven letter word..you get the picture.

How about using the sportsbook analogy?

Say two guys want to bet on a football game. They each pick a team, decide on either odds or a point spread and then decide on the amount of the wager. it should be pretty clear that a more knowledgeable person is going to come out ahead if this goes on for all games for the whole year. This is the exact same as players sitting down and playing card games for money. The more skilled players are going to win in the long run.

The only twist is that like a sportsbook, if a casino is hosting the game, there will be a percentage taken from the pot. Perhaps your friend thinks that luck is so prevalent that nobody can overcome that rake. If that were the case, then yes poker would be gambling and be -EV for everyone in the long term. I'm not sure how to overcome that hurdle.

my approach is usually

"you ever hear of a professional poker player?"

"yes"

"ever hear of a professional slots player?"

that usually shuts em up.

That is a casino game. The house makes up for it by lowering payouts, better rules for the dealer, etc.

i heard a guy describe it as two pitchers throwing strikes across a busy highway. naturally a ton of variance occurs if you aren't allowed to see the cars coming and time it, but still martha stewart wouldn't stand a chance against randy johnson.

Just a thought...

I'd say it is similar to roulette except the players have their numbers covered up and through bets they try to prove theirs hit.

Feel free to argue it.

*First Post*

I disagree with every reason except for the third. There are easy ways to argue the other three...but I'm too lazy.

The truth is that poker simply is a form of gambling. (Are people's understanding or vocabularies impaired?) There is no way around that simple fact. Poker, being a game of skill with a strong element of chance, does not change that fact. It is still gambling, but it's gambling with a dynamic edge.

I think that poker players make a critical error when they try to argue that poker =/= gambling. Not only does this not register with whoever is listening, but nothing you say after that will make any sense whatsoever. Explain to them that yes it most definitely is gambling, but it's a game you can learn to win at. Further explanation ad nauseum. You can gamble on anything from the weather to politics. There are a lot of bad gambles, and a small number of good ones. Poker is one of the good gambles.

Use the classic coin flip game to illustrate edge in poker. Take out a quarter and say that you're going to play a game. If it lands heads they win $1, but if it lands tails you win $1.05. Explain that if you play this game indefinitely with a large enough bankroll, you will be drowning in money. Follow up with the standard poker coin-flip.

most of above post are partialy true but none explains it this way:

In contrast with any other casino game, in poker, especially in nl holdem, you have the opportunity to "gamble" with more than 50% chance of winning!
This is the MAJOR difference between poker and any other casino game!

/thread

Short and sweet. But really you'll never win I. For me substitute poker with managing money

This is Gold. A very good analogy. The randomness of the cards is like the randomness of the cars, but over time all the randomness in the world isn't gonaa help martha stewart throw more strikes than a MLB pitcher.

When i gave my friend the "do you know any professional roulette players" he said, "before TV, nobody knew about the pro poker players (not true btw), how do you know there aren't people out there making there living off roulette and you just don't know?" Not only was this a dumb response, it doesnt disprove my point that Poker is a skill game that you can make a living from.

Please actually read my OP, where i explain that there are two definitions of
"gambling." One encompasses all wagering propositions (poker, roulette, sports betting, business ventures, stock purchases, predicting the weather) and the other defines gambling as engaging in a game of chance for recreation in a situation where skill has little to no bearing on the outcome and the participant is playing to enjoy the thrill of action and the hope of "getting lucky" Poker players aren't hoping to "get lucky", at least not good ones.

just another quick point..

I think people that question poker and poker players assume a direct relationship with the words "gambling" and "luck."

poker is a form of gambling which always requires some amount of good fortune (the same for the stock market), but it is not ALL luck obviously.

I think when people say poker is JUST gambling they are implying that luck is the main factor in winning. They do not understand the dynamics of playing at a high level.

in addition to previous posts...another way to explain it is that in games of chance and other card games (blackjack) the person with the best outcome wins (you hit your number in roulette= win, you make 20 and the dealer has 19=win) BUT in POKER THE BEST HAND DOES NOT ALWAYS WIN DUE TO THE SKILL OF THE GAME. If poker was purely a game of chance, the best hand would always win.