I’ve had this internal debate on and off for a while now and I decided that it’s wrong to profit off of someone you have reason to know cannot afford to lose the money and cannot stop playing due to a gambling addiction. You could extend this logic as far as you want, like to anyone with a cognitive impairment that prevents them from understanding the game sufficiently well to avoid losing.

I also think it’s generally bad to use one’s intelligence to harm others. And taking money from another person is certainly harmful. It’s only less bad in poker because people agree to risk losing. But then there’s the matter of whether they understand the extent of their disadvantage when playing against some of the better players. It’s a bit of a case of taking advantage of ignorance. Which is also bad. If I tell you I’ll buy your watch for $25 and unbeknownst to the you (but known to me, because I specialize in watches) it’s worth $20,000 and I buy it, I have taken advantage of ignorance and given a very unfair deal to you, the victim. So too in poker where the disparity in skill level is unseen and probably unknown. Doyle’s famous quote “we’re all playing the same game. Well, almost,” is apropos.

Beyond that, if you are winning hopefully you are also smart enough to use the profits better than the losers in the game, which is probably a net positive. Losers tend to play too many hands meaning more money goes to the casino, which is probably an inefficient use of money. Winning means less to rake and more in your pocket, and if you are smart enough to beat the rake you are also presumably smart enough to make good investments, perhaps donate to charity, etc.

This assumes you can overcome the selfish nature of the game in your non-poker life, which many cannot. In fact, many are probably drawn to poker because it rewards selfishness as OP noted.

Everyone that plays poker knows the rules. When this "degenerate" that you speak of sits down and out draws you with a gut shot otr do you think he feels bad for winning? You think athletes feel bad for being better than their opponents enabling them to take advantage of them physically and increase their chances of winning? Is it unethical for Tom Brady to target a defensive back that keps getting beat on routes over and over again? Give me a ***** break. The game is the game.

+1

I’m somewhere between dumbostrunk and Bobby Peru… I can see both sides of the argument.

Donating to charity =/= smart.

Very complex topic. Of course gambling addiction exists, and some people lose life changing money in poker. However in 2021, there are infinity different ways they could fuel that if not through poker. I mean walk through any major casino in Vegas, there's usually one small room of poker tables and it's usually mostly empty, and the rest of the floor space is devoted to slot machines/table games. Even the absolute biggest poker rooms such as Bellagio and Venetian make up probably about ~1% of the total gambling floor space in their respective casinos.

That's not even to mention lottery tickets, sports bets, GME/Dogecoin/etc.

To address the "contributes nothing to society". At this point in humanity's existence I consider the recreation/entertainment industry a mandatory part of civilization, as much as transportation, law, tbh could argue even as much as food and water (I mean, they are all mandatory). Also would you think being a professional chess player or a professional swimmer is unethical? I believe poker is worse overall due to the gambling addiction aspect addressed above, but in this context is otherwise completely equal to those two professions which I have never heard the ethicality of criticized (you could argue swimming promotes people to strengthen the body, but poker and chess strengthen the mind).

People are doing heroin so it’s not that bad I’m selling Percocet… see how that logic works?

..
And you can get a scholarship for swimming or chess and you can’t for poker..

But your point is noted that there are other professions or hobbies that are healthier than poker but also contribute nothing to society.

I also think businessmen can sometimes fall into this category as well

Maybe some charities that don’t give the proceeds to the proper place… but giving to charity can be +ev for your soul

Is it ethical to sell beer? If yes, then is it ethical to be involved in the industry in any way, like let's say you're a computer programmer and you develop software for Budweiser?

I’m not a big drinker and I’m vegan so I know some beers that aren’t vegan so yes unless it was a vegan beer I would adamantly be against using animals as a commodity.

There’s also drunk driving and addiction which pose moral dilemmas.

Maybe marijuana/cannabis is a better example.. then I would have no problem in any way profiting off a plant or working in that industry.

But then again these may all just be straw man arguments and the truth is poker is unlike any of these things and is it’s own entity.

@Bohemianwrapsody I see, interesting responses.

In general, I feel like it doesn't make a lot of sense to categorize things into a black and white "ethical" or "unethical". For example, what if I could literally save a homeless guy's life with $1000 but instead I choose to use it to buy a nicer couch for my living room. I would rather think of it as a scale from 1-100 (which is still pretty simplified). It would be a misnomer to say a 49 is unethical but then a 51 is ethical.

In the context of professional poker and all the things people do full-time for income, poker is clearly on the lower end of the scale, but I don't think it is in the realm of the numerous evil professions out there.

For some more food for thought, almost everything, even like if you dedicate your life to feeding the homeless (while this is obviously on the high end of the ethical scale), has pros and cons. For poker, yes there are negatives but it also has provided:

-A way to make a living for many kind, generous people who for whatever reason are unable to survive in corporate culture (mental health/autism/etc.)
-A place where people from many different cultures and backgrounds can come together and interact
-A game to inspire people to sharpen their mind in terms of math, psychology, discipline, etc.

And of course, simply a game that millions of people have enjoyed.

~~~~

In the end though, it is up to every individual to calibrate their own ethical compass and follow it, if you decide you no longer wish to play poker because it is unethical in the same way you may have decided to be vegan due to the ethics of how we treat livestock/etc., then I would think that would be entirely reasonable even though I wouldn't do it :P

I’m definitely guilty of some black and white thinking. I do agree that ethics can be on a scale. There are certainly some things that are more unethical and less unethical.

I often rationalize poker by saying if I wasn’t fleecing someone at a poker table I would probably be fleecing someone with a sale, arbitrage, or an angle or investment of some sort.

I think ethics comes up a lot in poker as far as the intricacies of the game. Often times the floor will rule in a way that you can be ethically bound to do the right thing. Like for example one time the floor awarded me a pot bc villain showed 1
Card at showdown. I took the money. But I kinda feel bad ever since bc the 1 card had me beat and it wasn’t an angle or cheating in anyway. I won on a technicality. But the truth of the matter is that I knew I lost and probably should have shipped the pot to villain. In fact if I had it over or next time it comes Up I will likely overcompensate or at least aim to do the morally right thing.

I think ethics is about growing as a person. A lot of things you may find ethical at one point may become unethical later in life because of some sort of enlightenment on the topic.

oh man, ya there are so many more debates in the intricacies. Most (but not all) people would agree it's unethical to see your neighbor's cards and not tell them, but what if you already told them?

I completely agree with the latter. The former is interesting, I think many people (I'm thinking like 50/50?) are more ethical in their youth than they are when they are older and have learned more about the world (and thus experienced growth?), so IDK

That’s a good point..

Some young people are way more ethical than older people mainly their parents. I’ve read numerous stories of kids not being able to go vegan against their parents will so that’s interesting.

Also the old saying you can’t teach an old dog new tricks might apply as well. Many older people are set in their ways.

As far as neighbors cards go I was playing stud one time and this lady was holding her hand in the air on my direct right so I saw the entire hand and I was still calling her down!

But ya probably best to tell your neighbor if that’s happening bc you would want someone to tell you so on some basic golden rule mentality it’s the right thing to do.

Poker is a game that uses money also. There is nothing unethical in the play itself. Look at the life as a whole; that's what it is all about. It is competitive, challenging, and that's the focus of the game. What's around and connected to poker, that's an area where one can think about ethics.

Poker is a game. Money is involved.

The game is based on strategy and deception - I don't think there is anything necessarily unethical about it.

In fact there is a pretty honorable poker code if you think about it.

If you are really worried about it - get really good - win - and then donate your winnings.

You may be very wrong really, poker is actually a classic proven education, it is very healthy and your problems you can face. Now is a bank robber unethical to shoot the guards shooting him? No, they are trying to kill him for money only and money that is already insured. Rake and casino odds making is good or bad but in a supply and demand economy why play there but you have no choice. But is their money sacred? No

As for addiction with today's political systems there are many people with no place in the society and being a gambling addict is just part of the cost of revolution.

poker is not ethical. but alas, ones ethos makes the ethics.

Eventually Thanos will take yo and everyones **** if yous can't defend it.

Buckle up and if your game theory truly is that optimal that you have to ask this question on a poker forum; time to find more challonging competition/competitors... for your game theory philosophy.