I've just read the official rules of Irish poker and there's actually not one, but two differences from my game:

A) there's ONE constant betting limit in all four rounds (NL)
B) players discard hole cards BEFORE the turn is dealt

while my game:
- mixes pot limit with no limit
- players discard hole cards AFTER the turn is dealt

It just makes a big difference to the game. Whether you call my game a variant of "Irish" or "Pineapple" it doesn't matter because everything seems like this particular game has never been tried before. Just like they say, the devil is in the details ...

Scanned the comments but may have missed some content ..

How do you go to Showdown? If as NL then the use of 'PLO' is wasted since you could (are?) allowed to only use one card from hole cards at Showdown in NL and you are forced to use two in PLO. Saying 'pot limit' is fine .. The Big Game was pot limit PF to prevent the Loose Cannon from just going all-in every hand. (Good show)

If you are forced to use your two remaining hole cards at Showdown then you may have a variant game on your hands. PLO guys will miss the opportunity for a dangler to hold any scrap of equity to justify their Turn actions!!

If you discard after the Turn card comes out then you can certainly find a way to eliminate hole cards that would've been used for backdoor flush/straight possibilities, thus narrowing an opponent's range to more Board specific opportunities.

Sounds interesting. I want to play in a game where the burn cards are exposed, just to add a little bit of spice. GL

OK, can I suggest an extra rule for the craic. All the discarded cards ott get discarded face up, so everyone knows what you've ditched.

Thanks, I'll start from the end. If the discarded cards are exposed it may bring useful information, but in a live game it will make the game a bit less convenient and I think there might be a bit too much information at the moment (example: 4-way hands+) which could slow the game down or confuse some players.

The showdown goes like this - you can use 0, 1 or 2 hole cards to make a hand (like in NLHE). So you're right, saying that when having 4 hole cards the game plays a bit different than PLO. It's just mechanically identical.

I didn't get one of your sentences, because I don't know what "dangler" and "scrap" mean, but again, thanks for the post

A Dangler in PLO is a card that really doesn't connect with the rest of the holding (or the Board). Like QT93 is holding with a 3 dangler. So should a 3 hit the River giving a Player a winning two pair you will hear the Players say that they hit their Dangler. Also if you hit trips with the 3 that is another Dangler spot.

PLO Players try to scrape together as much equity as they can to justify their actions on each street. So having to toss away 'any' cards reduces that amount of equity going forward that those cards may have provided .. like a Dangler potentially making two pair. GL

Show me.

Here's how the situation looks like:

Most people who look into this thread read post #1 and then they read a couple of posts below. When they see other people saying "I know this game" or "It has been played before" they think - "oh, it's that guy ITryDeuces from that recent thread about play money time game, he's probably thinking he invented something great again while the truth is he invented the same thing as someone else did before" and they leave. They don't care any longer and don't analyze the game for example using the deck at home.

It's an obvious fact (for someone who read the whole thread) that this particular game I'm describing in post #1 has never been played before (less than 2% probablility). People could play something similar or almost identical but there's no way this game has been played before. If not, the game should be popular already and available online somewhere. If I'm supposed to be wrong, I need to see a proof (game's name or link).

Small details do matter in this case a lot. Other games discard 2 of 4 cards before the turn arrives, so the players are valuing not 4 but 2 cards already on the flop. While in my game they still do value their whole XXXX hand on the flop. It's a completely different game. When you combine this with PL switching to NL there's no way this has been played before. You have to trust me that the game is good or you need to use the deck and see for yourself, which I really encourage you to do.

I know I made myself a bad commercial here with my previous games (especially "Zeiter") and it counts against me now. Please remember I live in Poland where it's almost impossible to find people who know a lot about poker. This thread is so important for me ... you don't even know how much. So please post, read, try using the cards at home. The game really is very good.

Of course it's up to the players to decide how strategic and how deep it is. I'm not a player, but I know a lot about poker. Since it's at least a lot of fun it should be checked if it's not something more (which I would bet on).

Which part of "exactly" are you having trouble with?

Yes, I've played it *exactly* the way you describe. No, it's not spread online. No, Irish does not have just one set of rules. Yes, in UK DC casino cash games they will let the button choose the precise number of hole cards, discard positions, discard quantities and limit transition points.

No, you haven't invented it. Yes, I've played it.

Happy now?

Yes, I'm happy because even if you're telling the truth (and I believe you are) my game variant strictly points at particular 1 of the variants that your game does offer among all XX possible combinations. It points surely at the best one.

So when playing your game where the button decides the rules, players may not be aware which game is better. Of course they can choose what they like the most and that's good, but you never know what the button will decide. They simply may not be aware of the different quality of their variants. I'll tell you even more - your game looks like some sort of "search" for the best possible variant. Someone who invented it got lost at some point leaving pretty much all the work to the players.

It's not a problem to make a "game" like yours. I wouldn't even call it a game, it's more like a designer's tool that lets the players design the game themselves. And it has a weak spot too - people may choose variants that are weak forcing other players to play them.

You are probably wondering why do I claim my game is the best of all possible Irish (or Pineapple) variants. Here's the reason:

"It's the only game that successfully combines two most popular poker games in the world."

Define "successfully".



How many hands of this have you played? What do the other players think about it? Or, once again, have you only thought about it really hard?

Successfully - it switches from one game to another at the right moment, letting it squeeze as much potential as possible from both games.

1) Zero.
2) Answer is in this thread.
3) When you think about something really hard everyday for over 14 years, you start to be good at it. Especially when you "think" using the real deck.

Apparently not.

Yeah, right ... Tell me what exactly you don't like in my game, why it's not strategically deep and nothing unique, so we can talk about it. Or show me a "better" mixture of PLO and NLHE and I will prove you're wrong by pointing out your game's flaws by comparing it to my variant. Otherwise we won't get anywhere with this conversation.

Didace, I answered all your questions so far and looks like it's not the first time you're not answering those questions I'm asking you. Is this how the conversation with a 17k+ posts user should look like ?

If you have a point you should give some proofs, examples or expand your thoughts more. You can't just say "you're wrong" or "this isn't good" without explaining further because it looks like you expect people to treat your words as "holy and always right". As you can notice, some people posting in this thread would play my game and they would probably enjoy it, so you can't just ignore that.

You won't agree my game is good until Phil Ivey says so, will you ...

I thought it would be great for poker players to have a new good game at the times of the pandemic, but looks like people like you are satisfied with what NLHE offers and they want to play a game where all that could be considered as SPECTACULAR already has been done (unless someone wins the Main Event with a Royal Flush in the last hand or an 8 high hero call - which is impossible). NLHE is only about the money and proper play now. The sick times are gone forever. And this is how you want to keep it which is kind of sad and it's a stale kind of thinking.

OK, I'll play along. Why? For the same reason I read your threads, I find them and you amusing. That's not how it works - it's not how anything works. You don't get to say, "I have a great idea, prove me wrong". You need to provide the data to back up your assertion. You don't just get to say, "I've thought about it a lot", the burden of proof is on you. For a strategic card game like poker, "proof" would include the math that leads to strategy, and at least some play-test to determine playability. You have done neither.


As for the game you have put forward, it is essentially Pineapple with two twists - four cards pre-flop, and you don't discard until after the turn. Adding cards pre- is nothing new. Cardrooms all over are spreading Omaha with five or six hole cards. Nothing revolutionary there. The second twist is that you don't discard until after the turn instead of pre- or post-flop. This is not an improvement but rather an inferior way. I've thought about it (see what I did there?) and since there is only one card to come these decisions will be for the most part trivial and will add nothing to the game.

The other "revolutionary" part of your game is that it switches from pot-limit to no-limit after the turn. As it has been pointed out, this is nothing new. Irish poker has been mentioned, and - at least in the past - there have been cardrooms that spread low limit games that change from limit to no-limit on the turn. As for how it plays, I haven't done the math or actually played it (again, see what I did), but it seems to me that unless you are very, very deep-stacked, it won't make any difference on how the betting turns out in the end.


Of course, maybe this turns out to be the next big thing, only time will tell. But that's not going to happen unless someone (usually that would be the person putting forth the idea, yes?) puts in the work to do the math and test it for how it actually plays in reality, not in some theoretical world.

You're trying to promote your game by assuming that the NLHE part is an "advantage," because it's the most popular game.

But poker players who like weird games (basically mixed game players) mostly think NLHE is stupid and boring.

So, people who like NLHE won't like your game because it's weird and forces them to think. But people who like poker games that require thinking won't like it because it contains the stupid boring game. In sum, you have basically no audience.

A better path forward with your idea might be to have players draw to replace the discards. Sort of like Dramaha, without the split pot aspect.

Here's the real devil's trick - I combined some content of the previous two posts by Didace and Darth Sagebrush and this is what I got:

>>>> Players switch from PLO to NLHE after the turn is dealt (before betting) by discarding 3 cards and getting 1 new card ! <<<<

This rule makes the discard choice less trivial and the whole game gets a new spectacular factor - getting 1 new card creates totally unexpected situations.

EXAMPLE : hole cards: [Js 9d 5c As] and the board is: [Tc 6d Jc][ 8s]
Plyer may stay with 1 card which will give him:
- [Js] top pair
- [9d] open-ender
- [5c] flush draw and straight possibilities
- [As] broadway possibilities, high card

So now, the suited or paired hole cards count against you. I think it's much better now, what do you guys think of it ?

1) Stop using PLO .. it's 'Pot Limit' where you get 4 cards. The Omaha designation is a Showdown 'thing' and doesn't apply in your game.

2) Why not allow the Player to discard 2, 3 or all 4 cards? That would give Player's more information about what's going on instead of forcing all the Players to do the same thing .. similar to 2-7 and other drawing games. GL

I started to have doubts if any pot limit game is able to take off and find audience. It's difficult to handle in home games unless someone is really deep into poker. And it's still this kind of thing that limits the game in some sort of way. No limit is probably what people want the most, but it's so incredibly difficult to create a new NL game.