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Limping preflop (not SB theory) Limping preflop (not SB theory)

09-13-2022 , 09:15 AM
Hi, I was wondering if rakeless, anteless sims find limping in any position other than the SB. Or if there's any limping in theory when there's a straddle on, in positions other than the SB or BB. The only preflop ranges I've seen have rake in them, or if they're rakeless, don't have limping. I think I understand the cons of limping, but was just curious if they occur in theory in rakeless environments. Thanks.
Limping preflop (not SB theory) Quote
09-13-2022 , 09:17 AM
cash games or mtts? amount of bb? any icm considerations? did anyone else limp?

There can be limping in mtts.
Limping preflop (not SB theory) Quote
09-13-2022 , 12:50 PM
Limping is a thing in shortstack MTT scenarios. Here's an example of UTG limping in a 14bb MTT 8max spot with 12.5% ante:



The antes help as you're getting a better price on calling the blinds.

Limping is also a thing in heads-up cash, although that's technically SB.
Limping preflop (not SB theory) Quote
09-13-2022 , 04:21 PM
I'm wondering if limping occurs in 100bb cash games -- I should've been more specific.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brokenstars
cash games or mtts? amount of bb? any icm considerations? did anyone else limp?

There can be limping in mtts.
Limping preflop (not SB theory) Quote
09-14-2022 , 09:34 AM
The theory of limping is that it happens at higher frequency the more dead money is the pot. That's why SB in cash games features so much limping. And then we you go to SB in MTTs you limp even more because antes make the pot even bigger. Same thing with bomb pots where depending on how big the bomb is the correct way to play is limping your entire range.

But what is actually happening here? Why do we limp more the more dead money there is? It's because when there is a lot of dead money a higher % of our combos become profitable to play as limps, as they are getting amazing odds on continuing and trying to hit something on the flop.

Will limping outside of the SB occur in a 100bb cash game with no antes? No, as there is not enough dead money to incentivize playing a wider range.
Limping preflop (not SB theory) Quote
09-15-2022 , 05:03 AM
maybe when we all have quantum PCs and can truly solve the game open limping outside the SB in 100BB cash will be a thing but right now it isn't
Limping preflop (not SB theory) Quote
09-17-2022 , 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dude45
maybe when we all have quantum PCs and can truly solve the game open limping outside the SB in 100BB cash will be a thing but right now it isn't
You don't need sci-fi technology to run a limping sim. People have done multi-betsize sims before, so a limping sim should be feasible.
Limping preflop (not SB theory) Quote
09-18-2022 , 04:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3bet-Bravo
You don't need sci-fi technology to run a limping sim. People have done multi-betsize sims before, so a limping sim should be feasible.
But all preflop sims are not true solves, the game tree is simplified
Limping preflop (not SB theory) Quote
09-22-2022 , 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by getmeoffcompletely
The theory of limping is that it happens at higher frequency the more dead money is the pot. That's why SB in cash games features so much limping. And then we you go to SB in MTTs you limp even more because antes make the pot even bigger. Same thing with bomb pots where depending on how big the bomb is the correct way to play is limping your entire range.

But what is actually happening here? Why do we limp more the more dead money there is? It's because when there is a lot of dead money a higher % of our combos become profitable to play as limps, as they are getting amazing odds on continuing and trying to hit something on the flop.

Will limping outside of the SB occur in a 100bb cash game with no antes? No, as there is not enough dead money to incentivize playing a wider range.

How about when we are in the BB and there is a raise from EP, a call from MP and a call from the BTN. I've always heard that we should overcall tighter here and not looser, despite theoretically our weak hands getting better odds. This is presumably down to equity realisation and our weak hands getting coolered too much by the other three players' stronger ranges. However this concept of being tighter in the BB seems in contradiction to your middle paragraph about us being able to limp more in MP, LP and SB if there is more dead money in the pot as we are getting better odds. Can both concepts be true?
Limping preflop (not SB theory) Quote
09-22-2022 , 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Fold Poker
How about when we are in the BB and there is a raise from EP, a call from MP and a call from the BTN. I've always heard that we should overcall tighter here and not looser, despite theoretically our weak hands getting better odds. This is presumably down to equity realisation and our weak hands getting coolered too much by the other three players' stronger ranges. However this concept of being tighter in the BB seems in contradiction to your middle paragraph about us being able to limp more in MP, LP and SB if there is more dead money in the pot as we are getting better odds. Can both concepts be true?
Two very different spots. Open-limping from the SB is very different from calling a raise when there are cold callers from the BB.
Limping preflop (not SB theory) Quote
09-22-2022 , 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Fold Poker
How about when we are in the BB and there is a raise from EP, a call from MP and a call from the BTN. I've always heard that we should overcall tighter here and not looser, despite theoretically our weak hands getting better odds. This is presumably down to equity realisation and our weak hands getting coolered too much by the other three players' stronger ranges. However this concept of being tighter in the BB seems in contradiction to your middle paragraph about us being able to limp more in MP, LP and SB if there is more dead money in the pot as we are getting better odds. Can both concepts be true?
It doesn't contradict it, you are getting better odds in that multiway spot aswell, they're just not good enough to compensate for the equity loss due to multiple strong ranges involved.

"Dead money" implies there aren't strong enough ranges involved to protect that money
Limping preflop (not SB theory) Quote

      
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